Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 12 – Fan Behavior Transcript

Speaker 1:                           00:00                     You’re listening to the podcast Detroit Network, visit www. for more information.

Jerry:                                     00:20                     This is grand design podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand where we link the chains of reason of sports politics and culture.

DJ:                                          00:36                     Welcome to the Grand Design Podcast, episode 12. If you want to get in touch with us, go to for our website. You can email us at grand designspodcasts@Yahoo. Instagram is @granddesignpodcast and Twitter to follow us is @granddesignspod. Um, today’s episode is about sports fan behavior, but before we get into that, uh, there’s a little update for episode seven. We talked about equality in sports, basically about transgender. Um, this is from April 11th of this year. Every House Democrat, but one co sponsors bill intended to let biological male athletes compete against females in public schools. So it’s gotten into the government. Yes. So there are actually saying that even if it’s unequal, cause I think transgender male becoming a female is unequal. Let them have it.

Jerry:                                     01:38                     I’m not sure what university they’re now admitting transgender. It’s an all female school, but they’re admitting the boys who want to become females or it could be the other way around. They’re allowing that to be an admission.

DJ:                                          01:51                     Well, this isn’t sports, but did you hear what happened in Alaska? A, a transgender who went from female to male, went into a boys’ bathroom in a high school and took a picture of it posted on snapchat. The next day, there was a small riot where 11 boys went into the female saying and that they were identifying as female went into the girls’ bathroom. One of the, one of the girls was in there, kicked a boy in his private parts and yeah, she got suspended and the liberals are up in arms or the feminist because she got suspended. This, this is all because of this identifying as a female male,

Jerry:                                     02:32                     it’s only gonna get worse. It’s getting out of control.

DJ:                                          02:35                     Yeah,

Ryan:                                     02:36                     Were they just joking like the kids, are they actually being serious?

DJ:                                          02:39                     They were the boys. They were. They’re upset. And then what made them mad? What pissed him off was she posted it on, on social media, on snapchat, and she just did it without the bragging of it. I think everything would’ve been fine, but she went into the bragging, oh look at what this looks like, showing everybody. And then this happened in Alaska.

Ryan:                                     03:00                     It’s just a bathroom,

DJ:                                          03:00                     Yes

Ryan:                                     03:00                     I always thought the women’s bathrooms are supposed to be nicer because they supposed to smell better like perfume and shit. So

DJ:                                          03:09                     it’s true. It’s true. But the point is, I just wanted to update that. It’s gone beyond just the sports field now. Now it’s in the legislature. They are make it a law and I think what the law is, the Equality Act, we’re broadly amend civil rights legislation to allow discrimination against Lgbtq people. So they’re actually making it the law that you have to allow transgenders.

Jerry:                                     03:35                     I think also right after that episode we did were someone had the skull cracked, it was a male fighter, went into a female

DJ:                                          03:43                     didn’t we talk about,

Ryan:                                     03:43                     Yeah, we talked about that.

Jerry:                                     03:45                     That happened. Okay. All right.

DJ:                                          03:46                     Yeah. I think the orbital bone,

Ryan:                                     03:48                     Yeah

DJ:                                          03:48                     What was her name? Fannie. Fanny.

Ryan:                                     03:50                     Yeah, I forgot her name,

Jerry:                                     03:51                     I thought it was something different than that, but okay.

DJ:                                          03:52                     I forgot her name too. Yeah, I think we did address that. Anyway, it’s just the one to give you a little update on what we were talking about earlier. Now let’s get into the sports behavior and uh, how fans can somehow both make it better for the environment better and ruin it.

Jerry:                                     04:09                     Yes. It really, it all starts with sports radio, the talk show. Uh, we’ll go back to the mid nineties, maybe early, early nineties, when Mitch album came out with the first Sunday two hour talk and it just blew up. Ever since then, fans, they think they’re a GM scout owners, they know everything. They pay their salary and they have a right to say get rid of them fire ’em and so forth. And it’s really out of control now, especially with Detroit Lions draft going on right now. Look, Quinn, uh, Patricia, I’m not, I’m going to go into the Fords, but these guys know what they’re doing. They have their own game plan. And for these fans that come out and say it, they drafted this they’re going to burn the city. If they don’t draft this person when they’ve already signed some free agents, like for example, uh, Mel Kiper has got them picking a, a tight end. One fan called in and said they’ve got the tight in the first round, they’ll burn the city down.

DJ:                                          05:04                     What if it’s the best fit? The best tight end and happens to be the best player available when that comes around?

Jerry:                                     05:07                     Now this tight end is scouted to be, now you know how this goes. It’s all prediction. So it can pan out. It may not, but he’s the next Gronkowski quick tall, wide receiver blocker. Uh, that’s why he is high up in the rankings and the Lions don’t have a tight end. But see they just signed the Pittsburgh Steelers, Jesse James. So I don’t think the going to need that. My point of bringing this up is that fan who called in and said he was gonna burn the city down because these guys picked this person, this fan. I don’t know what he does, thinks he knows more. And this all comes from the, the lately, the sports radio. It’s just being lit up with just people. For example, I think I called you one day and told you it got out that Yzerman might go to the Rangers. The whole talk from the remainder was how the city would be burned down no more Redwings. Fire Uh, whoever didn’t let the high, well whoever didn’t hire Yzerman and let them go to the Rangers.

DJ:                                          06:03                     That’s Illitch, isn’t it?

Jerry:                                     06:03                     Well Illitch’s son but they’re talking more of, I’m not sure who hired the president of operations because that’s where he’s going to go from New York. The point is these fans boycotting just outrageous that Yzerman would even, and most of them were saying they’d be mad at him cause he went to the Rangers. It is his career. He can’t better himself? As far as I last, I knew a, I think Devalano was the president of operations and Holland is the GM.

DJ:                                          06:28                     I think the premise is wrong. They’re coming from the premise that Yzerman actually is from Detroit and he just played here. He’s not from Detroit. He knows he owes zero loyalty.

Jerry:                                     06:38                     I agree.

DJ:                                          06:39                     To the city.

Jerry:                                     06:39                     Even the host were saying they would be mad at Yzerman for saying yes to the Rangers. When Detroit not even offered, I mean it’s okay to go to Tampa Bay, but don’t you go to any of the original six or even a rival, God forbid to Toronto.

DJ:                                          06:52                     See the problem is he was, they were all looking for him to be the GM, the savior and replace Holland, but he’s going to be at least was it was interviewed to be the president of the Rangers. I don’t even think that’s on the table to be the president of the Red Wings. I would. That’s a better job. Why wouldn’t you go there?

Jerry:                                     07:07                     That’s where it gets even funnier because you know what the fans are saying? Make it the job. Whoever’s in the Detroit make whatever Yzerman is getting in New York, make it do it. Here we go.

DJ:                                          07:17                     Do they even realize that he won’t be making it on the GM makes it day to day decisions, so he won’t be making the decisions to save the team

Jerry:                                     07:23                     That’s the point, they have no clue yet. They’re sitting here demanding that he Detroit do whatever it takes to me. Fire these guys who aren’t currently the president just because Yzerman might be going to New York now. This was a New York Post article and again, it got Detroit all riled up, but they’re still talking about it today.

DJ:                                          07:38                     See, that’s the, they’re arguing from emotion. They’re really thinking because Yzerman was part of bringing the championship, the Stanley Cup to Detroit for those years. They’re arguing that they want that love back again from the feeling and it doesn’t necessarily mean that there were going to get it back.

Jerry:                                     07:52                     You should probably mark this podcast cause I’m telling you now this year, the next upcoming season for the Lions are going to get screwed on this new pas interference uh, uh, review and the, they’re just going to call up the next day like they did to be a Dallas game. How they got jobbed from that pass interference flag. That got picked up when they talked about it because now it is, they’re going down and the Lions made a great play. All right, but now the other coach can throw that flag to review that it was interference. Now you slow any play down in slow motion, you’ll see every ticky tack grab, whatever it could be interpreted as pass interference. So now what the Lions had a good play there are now going to get screwed again because of the rule that they’re championing it. Now it’s more than New Orleans, but the lines aren’t too because they got job two years ago in the Dallas playoff. The point being is that the fans will light up that radio show, the referee, just death threats. You name it.

DJ:                                          08:48                     Well, it can work both ways, if a, it turns out to be a play in their benefit, they’re going to love the role, but when it goes against them they’re going to be all up in arms and and pay grades. They got ripped off

Jerry:                                     08:59                     In the Lions history, when has anything ever gone their way? Good.

DJ:                                          09:03                     I agree, but we’re talking about individual plays now and in the individual play can, I mean a call it could end up being in their favor one or two times.

Jerry:                                     09:10                     I get your point but my point is, odds are it’s going to screw the lions and their fans are just going to get all illusions of grandour. How they’re now the ref, they see it better from their couch drinking beer, you know, critiquing, and then it goes over to the next week about whatever topic. Right now it’s, it’s the Pistons in the draft and it’s, and we’ve talked about her earlier, uh, the, the Red Wings and tanking, how they won the last couple of games and they’re not going to get Jack Hughes now. So here we go again. The fans are upset with the Wings, the fans, for not losing,

DJ:                                          09:39                     I need to address that

Jerry:                                     09:40                     We talked about it.

DJ:                                          09:42                     I need to address that Jack Hughes situation because as it was Ottawa, well they traded to Colorado

Jerry:                                     09:47                     Avalanche Right.

DJ:                                          09:48                     But Ottawa had the best pick and they ended up number four. So even if they did lose and become in last place, they could have had still the fourth pick. They still wouldn’t have gotten Hughes because of the lottery. They don’t understand the nature of the draft.

Jerry:                                     10:02                     Correct.

DJ:                                          10:02                     That’s a foolish, foolish argument.

Jerry:                                     10:03                     They’re thinking that they tanked and they came in last, they would’ve gotten Jack Hughes. I still think for the Rangers and the Blackhawks and get the second and third pick is what really got upset because they went from four to six and the Rangers and Blackhawks went from like 12 and 13 to the top because

DJ:                                          10:17                     that only helps my argument out because you don’t know what your situation is going to be. You don’t know what your position is going to be because of Lotto,

Jerry:                                     10:23                     OK

DJ:                                          10:24                     so they dropped from four to six because of the lotto

Jerry:                                     10:26                     So, for the purpose of this. Here we go again with the fans not understanding and then calling and thinking they know more than the GM w whoever it may be for the sport that they’re calling to complain about and it’s every day when you listen to 97.1 any sports talk, that’s all the fans do. It’s just complain how they know better. They know how to better to play calling, the player acquisitions. They’re even saying now that we should go out and get, for example, sign someone like R Kelly. As long as he can score a touchdown and hit the home run. It doesn’t matter anymore. That’s our fans though.

DJ:                                          11:01                     That’s pragmatism there

Jerry:                                     11:02                     We already talked about that.

DJ:                                          11:04                     However, I know I’ve brought this up in the past, but a lot of this has to blame, I have to blame EA sports and their video games and I love their video games, but they get, they get to playing and they think and they have to make trades in those games and they think that it’s just like that they can go out and do it and get their own, even though they probably set it on easy mode, they probably get the, probably get it from that, that they think they can

Jerry:                                     11:26                     Probably Madden more than anybody because that’s the thing, the game where you can

DJ:                                          11:28                     Not just Madden,

Jerry:                                     11:29                     all of them,

DJ:                                          11:29                     the NBA and NHL It’s not just Madden. The point is they allow you to be a GM basically

Ryan:                                     11:33                     Yeah

DJ:                                          11:33                     in those games and all of a sudden because you won in that season, you think you can go in the real world and be a GM in the real. And in fact, if I’m mistaken, GM’s aren’t paid to win they’re paid to fill the seats.

Jerry:                                     11:46                     You know you’re correct. I did a back in 10 years ago, took a course on to be a GM, scout and the GM’s Are not paid to literally do any acquisitions. The talent, although if you, if you figure it out, if you get a good talent, number one pick, it fills the seats. Not always, but they are paid to fill the seats. And the good example is this year in the NBA, this happened to the Sacramento Kings made the playoffs I believe, and they fired their coach and they just hired the Lakers coach Luke Walton. The guy did good. He, it was a team was horrible and he did a good job and he got canned.

DJ:                                          12:23                     I don’t know the situation and it depends on what was going down, what happened. I don’t know. Was the locker room in disarray? I don’t know. It depends on the situation.

Jerry:                                     12:30                     I don’t think he lost the team because they actually were doing better than the Lakers. They actually, uh, I think they’d beaten, I think they swept the Lakers, they may have been the eighth seed either way. They were a team that were, that were coming up and yet it was more like the fans calling it and just outraged. I think at the end they wanted, they wanted the tank for uh, the pick coming out who? Zion Williamson and they caught on real quick. After making the playoffs, eighth seed they’re going to get obliterated by the Warriors.

DJ:                                          12:58                     So you think it was the fans calling on radio talks? The talk shows that

Jerry:                                     13:03                     I’m pretty sure the

DJ:                                          13:03                     got him fired really?

Jerry:                                     13:04                     I’m pretty sure the Sacramento Kings, this guy is a fan related owner. I mean he takes it. There was an article a couple of years ago, even in the talk, we were talking about this guy that was basically listen to the fans and what they wanted and pretty much to make them happy because he went along with trying to appease them. You pay their salaries

DJ:                                          13:24                     Well, you were in order to get it from. He just told that even though it’s not true,

Jerry:                                     13:28                     that’s the whole point. He was appeasing the fans and then he gave like the fans had some power and there’s talk shows just lit up. They even got Chris Webber, I believe he paid for, I played for the kings and they got screwed. We talked about the officials screwed them out of an NBA title and that was over a draw because they want, who do you want to see? Do you want to see the Boston Celtics and the Kings or the Boston Celtics and LA Lakers in the finals? Now I’m not asking you the NBA officials, but those gms are paid to fill the seats period. If those seats aren’t filled, they’re going to lose her jobs.

DJ:                                          13:59                     Well, that’s my point. I don’t think they would, the average fan would be lost because that’s not, the job is not to win. It’s, it’s not too, I mean it’s great if you do win because that will fill the seats. But the job primarily is filling the seats.

Jerry:                                     14:11                     I think you said it before a couple of podcast episodes ago that it’s jealousy, they’re just jealous. The fact that, look, it’s a kid’s game and these GMs and coaches are being paid. Look at Harbaugh and I think he’s done a great job at Michigan making 7 million a year and yet he is being trolled cause he hasn’t won. He hasn’t won a big 10 championship. He hasn’t taken them to Indianapolis. He just being trolled. And what the program was when he took it over. I think it’s an alright job. I’m, I’m…

DJ:                                          14:36                     More than all right. What a Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke did was abysmal compared to what Harbaugh is doing now

Jerry:                                     14:41                     Where he’s taking it and he’s brought it back to I would agree. But here we go again. Fans think they know more than Harbaugh and he’s making 7 million. I could make 7 million and do a better job than him. So it’s that jealousy that it’s the money they want to make that money. Uh, which gets in, I don’t know how you want

DJ:                                          15:00                     You see the, but he got that 7 million based on what he did prior

Jerry:                                     15:04                     Correct, Stanford

DJ:                                          15:05                     What he did with San Fransisco and Stanford.

Jerry:                                     15:06                     Correct. Absolutely.

DJ:                                          15:07                     So

Jerry:                                     15:08                     all of these athletes are paid on what they did

DJ:                                          15:10                     jumping into the job is not going to get you a $7 million salary,

Jerry:                                     15:13                     but when you got these people who are jealous because they think they can do it for that 7 million, whatever, seven figure salary, then it turns into stuff like this.

DJ:                                          15:21                     Oh, I agree. I agree.

Jerry:                                     15:24                     The other part is that I’ve been to a couple of… Last Lion game that I went to. Uh, I wasn’t really a fan of the Dolphins like I was. And you know, back in the day it was a big Miami Dolphin Fan. The couple games that I went to, the Silverdome, it wasn’t pleasant just because you wore a different color. I mean, I literally got, nothing was thrown at me, but some of these comments were pretty, pretty vulgar because I was wearing a different color and that actually, here’s the bad part. They beat the dolphins and they still, just because I was wearing that had to, and it wasn’t like a college where it was good, clean, he was vilified, they were just upset. How could you wear that in here? My favorite team.

DJ:                                          16:03                     Well, I can give you an example of someone who was a very smart man outside of sports fan behavior and loses it when it becomes a sports fan. On Your podcast, Ryan, you brought up Gary Vaynerchuk or one of your guests did.

Ryan:                                     16:19                     Oh yeah, yeah, yeah

DJ:                                          16:19                     He’s a jet Fan. In fact, one of his goals is to become, to own The New York Jets.

Ryan:                                     16:23                     Yeah. Okay. I know who you’re talking about

DJ:                                          16:25                     I’ve listened to a couple of his podcasts and he’s literally said that he has gone and bullied kids and old men if they’re not wearing a Jet Jersey to the Jets.

Jerry:                                     16:35                     I’ve got a problem with that.

DJ:                                          16:36                     This guy is a smart guy. I mean, when it comes to social media and business, he knows, I mean, he’s, right now he has a $1 billion business, but when it comes to being a sports fan, his behavior is atrocious. That is wrong.

Jerry:                                     16:50                     100% wrong because it made me feel, I didn’t want to go back and have it. The Lions, even won, most of the time when they lose oh, watch out. If you were on that, um, I have an article here, the Dodgers and Giants who are enemies don’t like each other because he wore a Giants Jersey, two Dodgers fan, they killed him. No, I’m sorry. They didn’t kill them. Beat up so bad that he’s near death. He’s a paraplegic, cracked his brain and they’re in jail for eight years. And when he was

DJ:                                          17:15                     all for a meaningless sports game,

Jerry:                                     17:17                     he was attacked for wearing the giants jersey. He got sucker punched. When he hit the cement, he got knocked out. The guys who hit him kicked him and said, that’s what you get for wearing that shirt. That’s what you get. I’ll come and do a game to enjoy it. Um, and this guy was a, uh, uh, a paramedic who got attacked. Oh, these guys are serving eight year sentences, but eight years, this guy’s forever. He needs care for the rest of his life. I mean, it’s a sad situation. I was mistaken for another situation oh, what do you know at the San Francisco and the Dodgers again where this guy was stabbed to death over wearing a Dodgers jersey. So it goes both ways. A Dodger killed, the harmed or maimed Giant fan and the Giants literally stabbed a Dodger fan to death.

DJ:                                          17:59                     So when you break it down to the basic level, he was killed because of the color of the threads he wore on his Jersey.

Ryan:                                     18:07                     You know, gang signs, like all that again, you know what I mean,

DJ:                                          18:10                     It is irrational absolutely, in fact, no, they’re not the legal gangs,

Ryan:                                     18:15                     Yeah

DJ:                                          18:15                     criminal gangs, but they’re gangs.

Ryan:                                     18:18                     It comes down to that If you’re putting your life on the line

DJ:                                          18:20                     or hurt someone over wearing another color, you’re a gang is a gang member

Ryan:                                     18:24                     Yeah.

DJ:                                          18:24                     Absolutely.

Jerry:                                     18:24                     There’s alcohol, that’s part of the problem too.

DJ:                                          18:27                     I mean, they’ll get that liquid courage in them and they think they can, they can beat anybody up or take anyone down.

Ryan:                                     18:33                     Or say anything they want to.

Jerry:                                     18:33                     I don’t fault the people who want to have a good time, but a lot of people just tailgate a Lion’s game for the tailgating sake. They have no intention of going inside. Some of these guys get liquored up and then when they go in, they even drink even more. The price of the beer as crazy as it is, is irrelevant and it is just, I mean there were a couple of Monday night football games where it was a brawl up in the upper bowl and it was a Silverdome that’s in Detroit now, so when they get liquored up, I think that’s really a part of the problem that liquid courage takes over. They think, you know, because you’re wearing the enemy’s colors that they now can. They have every right to go and chastise. You really didn’t do anything. They physical violence back in the day was just, the college game is a little different. You’ve been to a hockey game in the U of M and that’s a fun atmosphere. This wasn’t fun. This was, they were mad because they lost and now you’re going to pay for it.

DJ:                                          19:21                     I have a low opinion of Detroit sports fans. I know being from Detroit, that means a lot, but I really do. I could tell you a story. When I went to the Pittsburgh civic arena before it closed down to see Mario Lemieux and I didn’t get to see what he’s got hurt, but I went through with my wife. She wore a Red Wings Jersey and I wore the Penguins Jersey. There were Detroit fans had came to see them follow the Red Wings who harassed me in a foreign, um, arena, not even in Detroit arena that couldn’t believe that they would come over and talk to me and couldn’t believe that I was from Detroit and I was wearing a Pittsburgh Jersey. They gave me a hard time because of it and it’s, it’s, and I didn’t get hurt. I didn’t get threatened, but I could see where that can lead to.

Ryan:                                     20:09                     Yeah, yeah

Jerry:                                     20:09                     Well, guy used to work with certain insurances in Nashville, faints from Nashville. The one thing he hated was when Detroit would take over that when they began as an expansion team, Detoir would just fill it up and take it over and they would just come down and they would throw a how many cups you got, how many cups you got? Not even bringing up the fact that Montreal probably destroys them in the amount they have.

DJ:                                          20:30                     24 to 11, Montreal has 24

Jerry:                                     20:32                     they wanted it. They wanted the let the Nashville fans know that they had 11 cups and Nashville had zero. They were an expansion team. It was just borderline arrogance, even though they were good. It was the fan though. The fan that comes down to just do that.

DJ:                                          20:45                     This is part of my problem with Detroit fans. They totally forget about the fact in the 80s that there were known as a Dead Wings. They totally forget about that. It doesn’t matter. What only matters. They put parentheses around their, Michigan State fans do this too. They put parentheses around their wins because they don’t know when they were abysmal and bad way, way in the path. That doesn’t matter. It’s that we’re, we’ve been good for a little while.

Jerry:                                     21:06                     We’re going to go back 10 years or 11 years. Well, we’re 9-2 forget anything that happened before that we are 9-2

DJ:                                          21:13                     Are you talking about Michigan State now?

Jerry:                                     21:14                     Correct Yes.

DJ:                                          21:14                     That’s exactly what I’m, what I mean it doesn’t matter in the total overall record and if you put Detroit’s total overall record, it’s not all that good.

Jerry:                                     21:22                     I think you got a, a better uh, example of the fans are just completely, I don’t know, but ignorant or stupid border line. When we were kids watching the Yankees, they always won and what did Detroit Fan’s call them “evil empire.” They always win, they always go out, they always sign that free agent. Uh, A-Rod you name it. It happened every single year

DJ:                                          21:41                     and Detroit Red Wings did that in 2002

Jerry:                                     21:44                     What is the difference between the Red Wings outside of the sport, the Red Wings and the Yankees? Not a darn thing. The owners want to win.

DJ:                                          21:53                     Well,

Jerry:                                     21:53                     Illitch brought in all those free agents bought the cup one year,

DJ:                                          21:57                     For one year, and I’ll give credit where credit’s due. 97 & 98 cups, Detroit was the best team. I don’t think they were bought. I think that was the Russian five and the development, but they bought the 2002 cup,

Jerry:                                     22:08                     but okay, they bought that. But even when the Russians, they acquired Fetisov off. They went out and did some free agent acquisitions that the Yankees always did, but the Yankees were bad for doing it, but when Detroit did it, no, no, that’s great. We’re awesome. We’re Detroit hockey town. We can do that. So one in one sport evil, how dare they do that, but in this town, as long as the Wings do it fine and dandy. Now, I don’t know how many years the Rangers tried to buy the cup and just failed. The Wings actually, Illitch actually pulled it off one year. Brett Hall, Luc Robitaille,

DJ:                                          22:37                     the Rangers have failed more I think.

Jerry:                                     22:39                     Yeah, they did. They failed a lot more, they were horrible. Ilitch actually pulled it off. He bought the free agents and with the Paval Datsyuk drafting in the seventh or sixth round Zetterberg which was pretty good. That’s what carried them for all those years.

DJ:                                          22:51                     I still think developing the Russian five is different, even through trades. I mean that’s their job. It’s different than going out and buying the cop like they did when they got better.

Jerry:                                     23:01                     I agree with you. I agree, but you, but you could use an example of the Yankees are the same thing as a Russian five and yet they were bad. They were always evil for bringing in all kinds of free agents every year. Steinbrenner wanted to win. He didn’t care about the luxury tax. Just win. Win the series, how many times he fired Martin for not winning and then hired him back? He was just mad.

DJ:                                          23:20                     Well, I can throw that evil back on to them because the proper definition of evil is hating the good for being good. And if you hated the Red Wings, I mean hated the New York Yankees because they were good. Well, not because of their flaws, but you hated them because they were good. Then you, my friend are evil

Jerry:                                     23:38                     If you listen to them now, because over the last, when the Tigers were relevant, they knocked the Yankees out. They won’t shut up about that. But back in the day when it was always the Yankees, again, there’s more parity now to where these fans, they have a where they think they have a chance to have more, let’s say back in the day was always a certain Dodgers and the Yankees were always in the world series and you didn’t have sports talk so the fans couldn’t weigh in like they do now. My point being is the Red Wing fans are hypocrites. Although I did stay in Philadelphia for a while. They’re pretty bad too. When you throw batteries at Santa Claus in a football game, that’s bad and that’s what they did. All right, and that wasn’t very, very, very merry.

DJ:                                          24:19                     You’re right and I don’t like it being brought up either. If you bring it up and Philadelphia, they’ll get mad at you just for bringing up.

Jerry:                                     24:23                     Here we go again, but you did it. If you don’t want to bring up, don’t. If you want to be held accountable, don’t do it.

DJ:                                          24:31                     I know. I’m not going to say that Detroit Red Wings (fans) are the worst. They’re not the worst, but

Jerry:                                     24:35                     I’m going to put them up there. I’m going to put them up there as one of the worst

DJ:                                          24:39                     one of maybe I think Philadelphia (fans) hands down are the worst

Jerry:                                     24:43                     And New England. They’re, they’re, they’re, they’re in a good, again, I was there and their team back in that day, they were horrible and they were up here we go upset because I was a Dolphin fan. In New England and they were horrible. That was back in the days when they had the guy bent over on the helmet.

DJ:                                          24:57                     The sad part is, I don’t think it matters where you’re at. If you go to a foreign state when you were a different jersey, you’re going to get in trouble for it.

Jerry:                                     25:04                     Well, no, I, I’ve, I’ve heard Green Bay is that they’re very courteous. They’re, they, they do not, it’s a fun time. That’s from what I hear, people went to Lambeau Field and watch the football game there. It wasn’t anything like they experienced in Detroit or New York or San Francisco. It was really a fun time, but that’s a different situation because that team is owned by stockholders. The fans, it’s the only one in the NFL to where the actual fans, they could actually say, hey, I paid their salary if they own the stock because it literally their GM, they answered to a board of directors. It’s not a stock market too.

DJ:                                          25:35                     Even there I think you’re conflating the issue, just cause your own stock doesn’t mean you pay their salary. You can’t say, I own apple stock so I pay your salary. That’s so not true.

Jerry:                                     25:43                     But I’ll give those guys…

DJ:                                          25:44                     No, you are invested in the team. Absolutely. Monetarily invested but you can’t say you paid their salaries.

Jerry:                                     25:49                     But I would give them more of a leverage over any other city that doesn’t. You know those guys, that city actually they have an investing power in that team that that’s the only reason I bring that up.

DJ:                                          25:58                     I understand, but I still think it’s conflating the two. But I get your point. I do

Jerry:                                     26:03                     Now we get into after the alcohol, this is where it really gets bad is the parents at the kids’ game. Some of these TV that I’ve watched, they turn into brawls. I’ve even heard of a parents go into the coach, I’m not bringing my son, if you’re not going to play him. Questioning, why didn’t you play my son over that son? But yet when they were asked to coach crickets. I’m too busy he couldn’t do it. They literally are living through their kids at that game and if a ref calls a bad call, they get they, it has gone to violence. It starts at the kid’s game and these parents just take it too seriously.

DJ:                                          26:38                     Absolutely. If you’re going to fight over the results of your kid now. I mean literally fist fight. I mean that is disgusting. It’s deplorable.

Jerry:                                     26:48                     I actually give me one that I lived through with, uh, you know, when Nikki was a figure skater back when she was just five and six years old and that vision, tiny, tiny little girls just, it was just cute seeing him out there. Well she got first and I think a girl from India got second. Her Dad tore up that metal and just curse the judges out. Five years old

DJ:                                          27:06                     India or was it was Indiana?

Jerry:                                     27:08                     It was the world championships. Yeah. Ooh, yes. They had one from England. They were all over the world at this one. I never forget this guy cause he had that thick Indian Apu accent over literally his daughter not being the best and he was yelling at the judges when they gave the award out the metals, it kind of ruined Nikki’s time because he was making a big scene over his daughter not getting the Gold and Nikki got it. Again, a good example of a parent just living through and most of it is they, they see some of these kids. Tiger Woods was the first one where his dad put him as a young age as a golfer, documented, he was on the Mike Douglas show and grows up to be world famous golfer. Millions worth millions. Parents are saying, if I do that to my kid, my kid will make millions and I’ll be taken care of. So really investing and making their kid, we talked about this, making their kids want to play just so they see that big payday. What are the kid likes it or not so irrelevant?

DJ:                                          27:59                     Wasn’t that that the?

Ryan:                                     28:01                     Yeah

Jerry:                                     28:01                     We talked to? We talked about this report. Absolutely,

Ryan:                                     28:03                     Trophy Kids

Jerry:                                     28:03                     yes. It’s where they take it too seriously, but I think there’s where they’re taking it. They invest all this money and training and they make this all star team and they don’t play enough. Parents take it personally with the refs and the coach or if uh, another team checks their, their kid, it was like a dirty play and the parents go after each other. It’s personal.

DJ:                                          28:22                     It’s not just against the coach. I’ve heard about parents going after the officials. So I think especially if

Jerry:                                     28:26                     the officials to

DJ:                                          28:27                     high school officials and they berate the high schooler, the young kid, because he’s making a mistake and it’s just for, gee,

Ryan:                                     28:36                     Yeah

Jerry:                                     28:36                     That’s where it goes down…

DJ:                                          28:37                     That’s what I don’t understand. We’re talking about a game. And, and if you look at the huge picture of things, these games are meaningless. They mean next to nothing and yet you’re gonna fight. You’re going to make a high school kid feel bad because he made a mistake

Jerry:                                     28:50                     and we say it’s meaningless. But the parents take it as meaningful because of the time they’ve invested and money, more importantly

DJ:                                          28:58                     no, no it’s emotion.

Jerry:                                     28:59                     Now, I agree with you

DJ:                                          28:59                     That’s when they get their emotion involved. Because if you are distant from it, even if it’s, you pay money, you can invest in a company and it fails, you know?

Jerry:                                     29:08                     Why are they emotionally invested?

DJ:                                          29:09                     Because they’re vicariously living through their kids

Jerry:                                     29:12                     because…

DJ:                                          29:12                     they want to win the championship through their kid. That’s emotion.

Jerry:                                     29:17                     But I also think of that the training and the time they put into it, they expect to get the rewards from them. When they don’t see it, the emotion kicks in to take it to another level. And it’s mostly disgusting what can happen if the parents get upset.

Ryan:                                     29:30                     I think it’s like they’re fans of their kid and only their kid, whatever it may be.

Jerry:                                     29:35                     I think you’re 100% correct.

Ryan:                                     29:36                     I mean it’s like that’s not how team sports work you know, they all gotta be doing something for it to be a success.

Jerry:                                     29:43                     And it really gets bad when you’re on a travel team. When all the kids are good, they’re picked, handpicked,

Ryan:                                     29:47                     Yeah,

Jerry:                                     29:47                     and they’re all good. But yet the parents still think their kids better than that kid again, but they’re all good to begin with. Best of the best. In most cases.

DJ:                                          29:55                     We played in high school, you actually could sit the bench and never play a single inning in baseball. I mean, so you weren’t, you weren’t guaranteed to play and you may even gotten on the team. That doesn’t mean you’re going to play.

Jerry:                                     30:07                     Yeah. But back then we got cut. They don’t cut anymore. They’re actually paying to play now and

DJ:                                          30:12                     now we’re getting to the home, the participation trophy because you’ve got to pay a certain amount of play, a certain amount of innings

Jerry:                                     30:18                     and they won’t cut because of the hurt feelings of the kid when they got cut and yeah, I got cut. But you go back and you’re better the next year.

DJ:                                          30:25                     The premise is that you’re agreeing with the participation trophy that you must play my kid no matter what, you must, I don’t care if they’re good or bad play a certain amount of time.

Jerry:                                     30:32                     Look at the little league world series. I mean I like watching it, but I hate the rule where every kid’s got to at least bat, run or…I mean even the end of the bench, they’ve got to play in the field. I mean it gives it to coach it like that. Especially for the world championship. You’re playing Japan and how you got to worry about, because you didn’t play this kid, you know, one inning or one at bat. You got to get him in there and you got to take your best player out. I mean at that rule, I don’t like

DJ:                                          30:56                     the huge loophole that is just having to be a pinch runner. Just go have him run for one. You know,

Jerry:                                     31:01                     I have to look up, I have to look up the exact rules, but it’s pretty technical. But again, just to run, you have to make them just, just to pinch run. But I think it’s more than just pinch running. The point I’m bringing up is it’s the participation that kid has to play when he’s not the best, but he has to play they’re forcing the coach’s hand and that can literally sometimes costs that championship. And again, this is competitive at the highest level for these kids. It’s the little league world series. They’re playing Japan, Thailand, especially when it gets to the international play.

DJ:                                          31:32                     No, I agree. I agree with it gets back to the participation trophies, but the, when the, when the parents get involved, especially when like you said earlier, they don’t, they don’t step up to coach. They don’t step up to do third base coaching or first base coaching, you know, the simplest, and there’ll be asked, we’ll complain when they’re kids.

Jerry:                                     31:51                     They will become, they’ll come, there will be approached to a coach, to volunteer, do something and they will give any kind of excuse what they have going on in their life of their jobs, what have you. But yet when it comes time to where they see their kid didn’t get into or they only play hockey is the best cause you go in there for 45 seconds shifts. You know, I heard one son didn’t, he only skated three minutes. He told the coach or he texted the coach, couldn’t even tell him how to text him that if he, uh, if his son was going to play three minutes, he wasn’t gonna drive an hour and a half to the game anymore. And this was a travel high level of travel league. These are the best kids playing. You think about that. Now you have to worry about this kid not coming because the parents just gave you a text. He didn’t play enough.

DJ:                                          32:34                     I don’t know how coaches can get a, and you can deal with it. I don’t know how…

Jerry:                                     32:37                     It made me not want to coach. I did that for Richie when I coached him and the other parents get involved. I got disinterested. I just walked away cause yet they didn’t want to do it. But yet when they seen I was doing something they didn’t agree with, they let me know. It just got real frustrating. So I could see where the coaches, would just walk away, not want to participate.

DJ:                                          32:54                     I was reading an article in Forbes. Um, they were interviewing Justine Guber who actually wrote an article who, uh, exposed Tressler and she got harassed by fans and Ohio state, but she, she wrote a book

Jerry:                                     33:07                     That’s a good example,

DJ:                                          33:08                     oh absolutely. But she wrote a book and they asked her, what she thought the absolute worst was. “I actually think the worst fans of all, maybe youth sport parents who threatened refs, berate their children and occasionally, let’s fists fly. When parents exhibit poor sportsmanship on the sideline, they teach their kids to follow in their disgraceful footsteps. If parents are raising the next generation of sport fans in their own shadow, it doesn’t bode well for those who will be sitting in the stands and the coming years.”

Jerry:                                     33:37                     She’s 100% correct because it has gotten worse over the years. Back when you and I were little, we played nothing like that. Nothing.

DJ:                                          33:46                     You know your parents yell, but we’d Never, I’ve never been in fistfights. I mean,

Jerry:                                     33:49                     and they wouldn’t yell at the coach.

Ryan:                                     33:51                     Cheering, you know?

Jerry:                                     33:52                     Yeah,

Ryan:                                     33:52                     certain levels of that,

Jerry:                                     33:53                     but they wouldn’t threaten the coach if the coach cut them. Heaven forbid if they cut the kid these days. Now the parents are going to walk through the coach, how could you cut my kid. He’s better than that kid. We got cut and we would man up. Don’t cry over it and try again next year.

DJ:                                          34:08                     I remember getting cut from basketball. I had no business being on the team. I got cut. I told my dad, our dad either try better next year or don’t play anymore. He didn’t go get in coach Taylor’s face. He just let it go.

Jerry:                                     34:22                     Well, that’s the whole point. Back then it was a different culture. I mean, heck, at that school, we’re talking about, Sister Veronica was the principal, and I remember my first day when I went in there, she had that uh, paddle, the oar, above her desk and she made it clear that she hated any water up activity whatsoever. And it wasn’t there for a canoe. It was discipline. Now they say that now they could have a social worker calling them going to that school and they’ll be suing them. Now one of them, that school is open anymore, but if it was that oar would not be up on that wall anymore, times have changed. I think you brought up PC.

DJ:                                          34:57                     Well, we came, we went to school at the very end of corporal punishment, especially in the Catholic school we went to. I remember when we first got there, the teachers were still flicking the kids in the back of their ears to get him to pay attention.

Ryan:                                     35:08                     Wow

DJ:                                          35:08                     Oh yeah. Yeah. So I mean, we but that was at the very end of it. It sort of went out two or three years later and that you never saw that anymore. But that was a very different generation. They believe that that’s what it took to make kids better.

Jerry:                                     35:24                     But that article is correct. It is getting worse because the kids that were raised that way back then have now turned in 10 times worse to where it’s leading to threatening the officials following them to their cars. Other parents, if they, the kid did some what they perceive to be a dirty play. It’s really chaos.

DJ:                                          35:40                     Well she’s right. It doesn’t bode well for future generations. What are they going to do?

Jerry:                                     35:44                     Only going to get…

DJ:                                          35:44                     It’s going to get a hundred times worse.

Jerry:                                     35:45                     It’s only going to get worse until they realize someone realizes that’s got to stop. And it’s only a game. It’s just like you said, it’s a game. Someone’s got to lose. But yet when they walk into this game and they’re so villa(fied), they have to get their anger out cause they lost. Not Realizing someone has to lose it. Someone has to win. But in this case, when I went to the Lions game, they had still won and they still berated me. So didn’t even matter if they won or lost it. The alcohol took over and because I was wearing the opposite colors and even then the Lions never won a damn thing and yet I got to berated. These guys were cheering for history losers and I’m the one that’s in idiot.

DJ:                                          36:19                     I think it boils down to emotionalism.

Jerry:                                     36:24                     That’s what it is.

DJ:                                          36:24                     It hurts to lose, it does it always hurts to lose, but the rational people are nonemotional. They’ll take that loss as a lesson and say, what can I do to improve? What type of, what mistakes I make and how can I win next time? It’s the emotional ones that say, no, my kid can never lose my kid can not be hurt that way. He must be coddled. He must be always given a trophy.

Jerry:                                     36:45                     Correct.

DJ:                                          36:45                     Coming up

Jerry:                                     36:45                     and that’s where it starts and like that lady writes, it’s going to get worse until we realize again, get the emotions out. It’s only a game. I don’t see that happening anytime too soon. I see sports radio getting bigger and bigger and even more. Even Superbowl, we talked about it earlier, there’s super bowl parties now. People aren’t just watching the game. They’re going for the party and the commercials.

DJ:                                          37:06                     Ryan, do you ever go to a professional MMA or UFC? Have you ever seen?

Ryan:                                     37:09                     No, I never been to a UFC, but I mean I’ve been to like pro leagues around here and stuff.

DJ:                                          37:14                     How are the fans in they’re…?

Ryan:                                     37:17                     Intense, you know, but it’s, uh, I, I mean I could even take it at like the UFC level where you saw um, like Conner McGregor and stuff, you know, he had like the Irish fan base and stuff like that and like

DJ:                                          37:30                     once it got alcohol and feuls

Ryan:                                     37:31                     true. And like I remember it was probably Rogan and talking about it, but, um, it was one of his fights. Uh, what, whenever he won obviously knocked this guy out or something. But like they were just talking about how, because it was in Vegas and like, they just had all these incidents of people like his fan base just going nuts. Like they just sort of just destroying hotels, just like, you know, because they’re so happy he won this big fight that was going on and it was just all Irish people because for Conner McGregor, they just showing you like even for a win, you know fans can still get crazy and

DJ:                                          38:10                     well you bring up the foreign influence. What about us soccer or football? I mean those,

Ryan:                                     38:17                     That’s what I thought.

DJ:                                          38:17                     Those guys when I only get rowdy,

Ryan:                                     38:20                     How many hooligans kind of stuff?

DJ:                                          38:21                     Exactly

Jerry:                                     38:22                     how many times have we’ve seen a ref chased after the game was over and the fans were so pissed because they whatever lost that game. And the guy in the Yellow Jersey, the ref is running out and the kid the are chasing him? Look soccer, I’m talking to the world soccer and I, I don’t like watching it. But those fans, those guys take it to the even next level,

Ryan:                                     38:43                     Yeah

Jerry:                                     38:43                     which I have in here.

DJ:                                          38:45                     What’s your adding, especially when it comes to like Olympic and world soccer, you’re adding nationalism to it. So if your team, if France loses to England, there’s a lot of history involved in that.

Ryan:                                     38:54                     Yeah

DJ:                                          38:54                     So you’re adding to it, besides the alchohol.

Jerry:                                     38:56                     I see what you’re saying, but this is like the, uh, I don’t know the leagues, the Italian league, the European League, they’re not, it’s not a country based.

DJ:                                          39:02                     You brought up World

Jerry:                                     39:04                     Correct

DJ:                                          39:04                     That’s why I brought up the Olympic style.

Jerry:                                     39:05                     I remember a Brazil player who wasn’t for a world competition. He got killed because he missed a penalty shot. They shot them, they killed them. The fans shot the guy. I can’t, I don’t have, I didn’t look that one up. I probably should have. But those soccer fans, they take it, what we’re talking about to a whole other level. Scary level. I mean, I’ve seen fireworks go off in the stands in England because Liverpool lost, it was just one big fight, if you recall that or not. It was a couple of years ago and they just went crazy. Something happened with a ref making calls and they set that building on fire. It was in the stands that a couple of people got trampled again. They take it to a whole other level.

Ryan:                                     39:42                     Yeah

Jerry:                                     39:42                     It is very crazy.

DJ:                                          39:43                     Well, back to the MMA. Do they, do the fans themselves because we’re talking intense fighting,

Ryan:                                     39:49                     Yeah.

DJ:                                          39:49                     Do they?

Ryan:                                     39:50                     It’s way more personal too because I mean unless they are like, and I haven’t seen him at these like UFC levels so it’s more or less a lot your friends and family and like your gym and stuff that’s going to probably be there to watch you and like, you know, vice versa with your opponent. So you know, and this goes with like uh, different backgrounds and stuff with um, you know, people just have giant families so they’ll have like hundreds and hundreds of their family members there. So you know, they don’t want to see this fight or lose in any way or get hurt even though that’s what it is. It gets, it just gets, it can get, I’ve seen fights break out

DJ:                                          40:30                     So it does happen?

Ryan:                                     40:30                     Oh, all of the time.

DJ:                                          40:31                     You bring up the families or the gyms, those are tiny nationalities.

Ryan:                                     40:36                     Yeah.

DJ:                                          40:37                     It’s not a nation state, but it’s still a tiny, I don’t want to use tribe but it is a group.

Jerry:                                     40:43                     I think that is a family, They’re close

Ryan:                                     40:44                     Yeah

DJ:                                          40:45                     Once again that’s another nationality,

Ryan:                                     40:46                     The gyms are a lot better at it because they understand it as a sport and then it’s like, unless it’s a really messed up call, you know, some coaches and trainers, you know might get in a ref’s face or something, but it’s like more or less you lost, you lost or you won, you won. And they’re like, all right, let’s move on from that. So, but like families and like friends kind of usually don’t get that. That’s like kind of a vibe. What I observed in those situations, they think and even the guy gets like totally ko’d and lost like 100%

DJ:                                          41:17                     The reason I even brought up in the first place was, MMA style fighting is intense. And you would figure that the flights would break out in their stands instead of at a baseball game.

Ryan:                                     41:27                     Yeah

DJ:                                          41:28                     But that’s, so that’s why I asked the question

Ryan:                                     41:30                     Yeah, I’ve seen, I’ve seen fights at fights.

DJ:                                          41:32                     Yeah.

Ryan:                                     41:33                     Oh yeah.

Jerry:                                     41:33                     I believe it, but I just, it’s violent to begin with.

DJ:                                          41:36                     They think they they can fight, right? Is that what it is?

Ryan:                                     41:39                     Yeah. You know, and friends talking crap to each other.

Jerry:                                     41:41                     But these guys are trained. I mean they can do some stuff, you know, like kicking and stuff,

Ryan:                                     41:44                     But these are the people that aren’t special.

Jerry:                                     41:47                     That’s what I’m talking about.

Ryan:                                     41:49                     I’ve seen Mom’s throw down. I’ve seen girlfriends like,

DJ:                                          41:51                     it’s prevalent in all of society. Doesn’t matter what the sport is.

Ryan:                                     41:54                     Yeah. It’s all the same thing. It comes down to,

Jerry:                                     41:57                     well, most of the time they feel they were ripped off. Whatever reason they lost or their team, they’re choosing for fight or choosing and for lost for whatever reason,

Ryan:                                     42:04                     Yeah

Jerry:                                     42:04                     the ref did something wrong. That’s why it’s bad to be a ref now and I’m

Ryan:                                     42:08                     I’d hate that job.

Jerry:                                     42:09                     Yeah, exactly. Most of the sports that can baseball, we’ll go to computerized referees. I think that see that coming because

DJ:                                          42:18                     I don’t know how you can do that in MMA, could you?

Ryan:                                     42:21                     I mean, I don’t see how you could just do that in general. Like I mean obviously

Jerry:                                     42:27                     In baseball could be done. It could be. Absolutely.

DJ:                                          42:29                     If you watch baseball? They got the box now on TV that says strikes

Ryan:                                     42:32                     Yeah

DJ:                                          42:32                     It shows you where the ball went. If you have a real time computer, there was someone sitting there and they could, instead of being behind the plate, they can be sitting in the stands saying yeah they’ll just strike that was a ball. So it’s possible in baseball, maybe football. I just don’t understand how it would be. And I mean even in tennis you see the computers, you see the, where the ball hit outside the line. So even it’s possible there. I just don’t know about wrestling or MMA or those type

Jerry:                                     43:01                     boxing

DJ:                                          43:02                     Or boxing, yeah.

Jerry:                                     43:02                     I don’t know how they could do it? I’m sure they’d find a way. But yeah I don’t even football,

Ryan:                                     43:06                     Yeah, I don’t see it

Jerry:                                     43:06                     hockey, I don’t see how they could do it. But baseball. Yeah cause I also, there’s something they’re trying to design in the cleats and the basis where they have sensors. So the tag outs and stuff to where you don’t need a human being to actually be there. It’s all computerized. My question just

DJ:                                          43:20                     so they’re going to riot now because of the computer?

Jerry:                                     43:22                     I was just,

DJ:                                          43:25                     the robots have taken over

Jerry:                                     43:27                     and I was just going to bring up that they call that third strike and the robot called it cause it hit that millimeter on the outside plate. That player is still gonna throw that back at whatever camera,

Ryan:                                     43:36                     Oh, yeah yeah

DJ:                                          43:36                     but we’re talking emotion. I think this, I really do. The problem is

Ryan:                                     43:41                     of course it is

DJ:                                          43:42                     Instead of being rational beings were being emotional beings.

Jerry:                                     43:45                     I also think, I don’t want to blame money, but back in the day there wasn’t a lot of money in these championships. Now there’s just so much money. These guys feel I’ve lost millions because you, you took it from me.

DJ:                                          43:58                     Is that an emotional reaction or rational one even though it’s about money

Jerry:                                     44:02                     it’s irrational, but I think the emotion comes in and they’d lost millions of dollars cause

DJ:                                          44:07                     It’s still an emotional reaction.

Jerry:                                     44:09                     Well back in the day Al Kaline turn a million dollars down. There wasn’t a lot of money in these championship games and what isn’t a big deal. He did it for the love of the game.

DJ:                                          44:17                     I think that’s the love of the game, I mean, if you really love the play, the money doesn’t matter as much.

Jerry:                                     44:20                     How many players and today play for the love the game? They get,

DJ:                                          44:26                     I can’t think of one

Jerry:                                     44:27                     in basketball it’s the worst. But because, uh, the ceiling next year for the salary cap is going to be enormous to where you got bench players make an astronomical salaries. It’s not like that in baseball only the few, but in basketball, yes. And then if they win that, yeah, they get more bonuses. They go through and these guys are saying, I mean the funny part was Deion Sanders. Now this is all funny, but it’s kind of like where the money comes in and emotion when they go to the all pro bowl. Okay. That was when I go to the Superbowl, they go down there and Deion Sanders or was, he goes, after the first few times I realized, I told my wife I got their pro bowl was like, ah, the inlaws are going to want to come in my family. So he go down there and it’s in Hawaii and then in the third quarter, that’s just a fun game. The third quarter guys, we have to win. I need that 60,000 to pay for my inlaws who just came down. So it boils down to that bonus for winning the, and the NFL is the worst all star game of all the sports. But now all of a sudden it gets competitive because the inlaws came and he does. He has to spend that check. So it’s money, the emotion, okay.

DJ:                                          45:27                     I think I can come up with one person who does play for the love of the sport. Detroit fans are going to hate me for this one. But Sidney Crosby, he took way less, way less than he could take. Uh, as far as market value goes

Jerry:                                     45:41                     in the same argument, Yzermanwas the same way. I mean, I, I put

DJ:                                          45:44                     Yzerman play anymore,

Jerry:                                     45:44                     Right But I would put them, I put them to there though

DJ:                                          45:46                     the point is they’re there, but they’re rare. And if we were more like him and the fact that we get an emotionally attached to money,

Jerry:                                     45:56                     I agree. But most of the people, I’ll go out on a limb and say 75% are like Antonio Brown, give me the money

DJ:                                          46:06                     I’m saying there is the rare instance where there is one or two that

Jerry:                                     46:10                     and because you didn’t vote me most valuable player, I’m Outta here. This is my team anymore. I think a lot of the people are going that route

DJ:                                          46:17                     Isn’t this emotion? So I think…

Jerry:                                     46:19                     I was just going to say is that emotion

DJ:                                          46:21                     people are using their emotion more than reason.

Jerry:                                     46:22                     Keep your emotions in check and realize that when you lose the sub will come up tomorrow you go back and get them. You don’t have to get mad at the opposing team because you lost, I mean again, Ohio state fans when Urban Meyer and that whole thing was going on about the coach who was beating his wife, they gave every excuse. They were willing to accept this guy now because he was a great coach. You know, you got to come down and say, no, we don’t want that. See you later.

DJ:                                          46:47                     This is going to be high level philosophy, so, it’s time that people get bored now, but I think it’s, this is a result of the postmodernist philosophy where it’s anti reason, anti science, anti renaissance, anti enlightenment.

Jerry:                                     46:57                     It’s all you’re hearing in the news today. It’s just what you just said. It’s everything everywhere

DJ:                                          47:00                     We live in a postmodernist philosophy world and that most people don’t even know what the hell I’m talking about. If I said it to them, they wouldn’t even know

Jerry:                                     47:07                     and they just turned off the show because you said that

DJ:                                          47:10                     well, they may have, but what it is is what I just said, it’s anti reason and what we talked about today was anti reason. It’s all emotion reason doesn’t come into play whatsoever. If I say how important philosophy is, you live your life by a philosophy. Your only choices which one.

Jerry:                                     47:28                     I agree. So at the, I think we’ve got to get it in check and we got to get a reign our emotions in and take these losses a little bit better.

DJ:                                          47:34                     I totally agree. Totally agree. Well, and you listened to the Grand Designs Podcast. I’ll let you, uh, know one more time. Uh, you can get in touch with us at Our email is grand designs at Yahoo, garnddesignspodcast, sorry, Uh, Instagram is @granddesignspodcast and you can follow us on Twitter at granddesignspod, granddesignspod. This is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

Fan Behavior

Something has happened to sports fans. No longer is it acceptable to local fans for anyone, whether resident or visitor, to cheer on an opposing team and woe to thee who wears the opponent’s jersey. What happened to allow this type of knuckle dragging behavior to become acceptable?

  Yet, it doesn’t end there. This type of thug behavior has also become acceptable amongst the players themselves, in both the amateur and professional levels. In an article published on entitled Bad Sports Behavior Starts in Youth, they point a fine point on it:

  “These actions have become so prevalent that academic researchers have created a branch of study called ‘deviance in sports’ attached to the sports sociology tree.”

In their new book, Deviance and Social Control in Sport, researchers Michael Atkinson and Kevin Young emphasize the confusing environment surrounding athletes. They describe two types of deviance: wanted and unwanted.

“Owners, players and fans may know that certain behaviors are literally against the rules but are at the same time appreciated as a sign of doing whatever it takes to win.  Performance-enhancing drugs are not allowed in most sports, but athletes assume they will improve their performance, which helps their team win and keeps fans happy. Fights in hockey will be, according to the rule book, penalized, but this deviance is assumed to be wanted by fans and teammates as a sign of loyalty.”

 The worst fans of all may be youth sports parents who threaten refs, yell at their children with popping veins in their necks and occasionally let fists fly. When parents exhibit poor sportsmanship on the sidelines, they teach their kids despicable lessons that seem to imprint on them. If parents are raising the next generation of sports fans in their own shadow, it doesn’t bode well for those who will be sitting in the stands in coming years.

 We’ve lowered our standards as sports fans to where absolute barbaric behavior has resulted, if it’s done in the name of the right team.  In 2014, two Dodger fans were sentenced to prison for the barbaric and brutal beating of a man donning a Giants jersey in 2011. The California judge referred to the Dodger brutes as “the biggest nightmare” of fans who attend sporting events. Not only was the beating itself bad enough, but the cowardly, knuckle dragging perpetrators attacked the 45-year-old paramedic and father of two from behind. The only thing that seemed to provoke the Dodger cheering thugs was the fact that the color of the threads on the victim’s jersey were not acceptable to them. The victim suffered severe brain trauma and will require long-term care and 24-hour assistance for the rest of his life just because he committed the grave sin of wearing an opponent’s jersey to a Dodger home game. The 8 year and 4-year prison sentence that the 31-year-old and 33-year-old perpetrators are not nearly long enough (nor are their names worthy of the ink necessary to print). The victim will suffer for the rest of his life because of these cretins, justice demands they suffer for the rest of their lives, as well.  In a civil lawsuit, the Dodgers were also found partly responsible for the beating.

 However, not all Giants fans are so innocent. A 24-year-old Dodger fan was stabbed to death in September of 2013 after a Giants game in San Francisco. What started as an argument between rival fans crossed the line drawn by civility with deadly consequences. Is a meaningless baseball game worthy of taking a human life? This senseless act of cruelty comes just three days after a teenage football fan was attacked at San Francisco’s Candlestick Park during the San Francisco 49ers’ 27-7 loss to the Indianapolis Colts, proving football fans can be just as deplorable.

  Both participation in and spectating of sports event can have both wonderful and positive impact on children and society. Competition can make us strive to make ourselves better, pushing us to heights that weren’t possible without such motivation. Yet, like a drug that great to take away pain, too much of it or lack of moderation can have detrimental and devastating effects. We must ask ourselves, is the color of the threads of an opposing jersey worth all of this mayhem? 0105000

Grand Podcast – Episode 11 – Participation Trophies Transcript

 [00:00:00] You’re listening to the podcast Detroit Network visit for more information.

This is Grand Design Podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand where we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

[00:00:34] DJ: Welcome to the Grand Designs Podcast episode 11 I’m DJ Grand and I’m joined again with my brother Jerry.

Jerry: Hello

DJ: and our engineer Ryan.

Ryan: Hello

DJ: Today, I’m going to need to lay a little bit of a foundation of the philosophical Foundation of our subject. We’re going to be talking about participation trophies, but it doesn’t just happen in a vacuum. There’s a reason these trends sort of come up. I like to call them…well, people who know me, [00:01:04] anyways, know me as they know that I’m a philosophical nerd. I get into philosophy a lot and in my studying of the history of philosophy. I’ve sort of learned that it happens in waves on philosophical trends coming waves, and that’s the best metaphor. I can think to say to describe it. It’s one wave comes in crashes on the shore and leaves its imprint on the sand and the beach and then it recedes and then another wave comes along crashes into shore wipes out those impressions [00:01:34] and leaves its own impression for it then to recede again and have another to come along and this happens in perpetuity. If you go back to the beginning of known philosophy or the most famous philosopher Socrates, he actually didn’t write down a single word. It was all there was written down by a student’s, most notably is Plato, and then Plato was his student, Socrates student or his disciple, and then Plato turned and had a student and [00:02:04] his most famous student was Aristotle. So, what Plato and Socrates thought was right Aristotle totally rejected. So, Plato was the first wave and then Aristotle comes along with the second wave basically rejecting almost everything that Socrates and Plato said. This went along for a while and reason went underground and during the Middle Ages or dark ages. But Aristotelian thought [00:02:34] was kept alive by a few Arabic philosophers until it was really brought back up into light by St. Thomas Aquinas and when he brought it back it ushered in the Renaissance and then the Age of Enlightenment, but after that time came in the modern era philosophy and it was that was the beginning of the rejection of the Aristotelian thought philosophers such as Hagel and Immanuel Kant and later Karl Marx totally rejected Aristotle. [00:03:04] So that was another wave come along wiping out Aristotle. So, how does this all involve into participation trophies? Well, we need to also do a little bit of background on current modern history. A little personal history, my grandfather was born in 1900 and he for he got to be 14 years old, he  experienced the first world war and [00:03:34] in 1917 when the first war ended he immigrated into this country, but at that same time you got the rise of Communism in what would be Soviet Russia and then shortly thereafter was the Great Depression after the Great Depression comes the rise of Fascism and Nazism in Germany and fascism in Italy, which then led to World War II. Now, if we think about it the people who live during my grandfather’s time, we’re lived in a [00:04:04] very special time and it created a certain Ethos, a certain culture, and that culture was tough, authoritarian, winner-take-all, you had to live by the rules. So that sort of influenced that culture and then how they raise their kids. Another good example of modern times, if we think about it the 1950s was a very strict Christian almost authoritarian era and [00:04:34] if you think about their the television shows like Leave it to Beaver or The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, everything was all problems are solved in a half an hour in a neat package and even the parents, the husband and wife weren’t even allowed to sleep in the same bed. And this philosophical wave caused thus what would the late 60s cause the sexual Revolution that was rejection of the [00:05:04] 1950s. So, one wave again wiping out another wave. Well, my father was raised by the that authoritarian ethos and that’s how he raised me. That’s how we raised Our Generation and then Generation X comes along and rejects that totally it’s more of a kinder and gentler parenting. It also led to helicopter parenting and a couple other things but also that rejection brought about [00:05:34] the participation trophy culture. Now, instead of winner take it all instead of it’s the hard-cold reality of you made lose. Now you get rewarded for just showing up. Now, I’ve done my little introduction. What do you think about the participation trophies?

Jerry: Well, obviously being raised by the same father Yes, it was strict and you didn’t get a trophy for second place and matter of fact, we want a couple runner up trophies for playing hockey. Did it mattered we even [00:06:04] keep them? So just into trouble for showing up, no, but in today’s culture you are correct. They’re trying to teach the kids that they just show up and give them a trophy for their effort, it’ll motivate them more to a play participate get more into it and a it says it gives them better grades because they’re actually rejecting what we just said that because we’re all coaches always told us, this is life guys, you know, when you lose all these close games like Duke last night with Michigan State that’s life doesn’t always go your [00:06:34] way. They’re saying the exact opposite

DJ: According to the participation trophy, Duke should be rewarded for losing.

Jerry: Well, yes, correct is to show just for coming out there and playing it for their effort. It’s not about winning or losing its effort and they are saying it’s in small children, you’ll five-year-old’s after they should and they don’t get into it when it should stop but they’re just saying it’s for the young children to develop their minds and their discipline and getting good grades and they use the grades all the time the keep on saying that.

DJ: well, I think it’s a rejection of discipline because you need to be disciplined [00:07:04] in order to accept losing. I think is an absolute rejection of disciplinary methods but I’m glad you brought up second place trophy is because I think that was the bud of what brought in the participation trophies…the consolation prizes

Jerry: silver and bronze medal

DJ: not so much that, just you get a consolation prize for not winning. And that was the very beginning I think of the participation trophy because then you would get a prize for not winning. But at [00:07:34] least second or third did get a prize and the rest didn’t, now, everybody gets a prize

Jerry: then it went to fourth place you get a ribbon or what have you

DJ: That’s my point

Jerry: Correct. But again, it goes back to where now James Harrison, you know who he is.

DJ: Yeah, a Pittsburgh Steeler linebacker

Jerry:  tough guy awesome football player won a couple of Super Bowls play. I think 12 Seasons thing is fourth grade his two sons put played in the league. They came in fourth place they got trophy. He made them give them back. [00:08:04] You’re not going to be awarded for losing flat out those the quote was “Your trophy shelfs will stay bear until you come back with a victory.” Now, they’re literally making fun of James Harrison in this article for that parenting skill. Now this guy actually brings up and goes a bit personal with Harrison about him, but with it with domestic violence that has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just this guy trying to I think diverted the situation that Harrison’s right. He’s bringing his kids up correct that you know, you were awarded for winning whether it be division [00:08:34] MVP the top player top team.

DJ: Harrison did that, I think he posted on Instagram but Kurt Warner, who is a former NFL Super Bowl champ, agree with him. He posted that “Don’t know where you stand by him fully with Harrison 1992 on the participation trophy. They don’t like kids past classes for just showing up.” So, it’s not just Harrison. It’s other NFL players that agree with him.

Jerry: Well this article here is basically, now, he’s also using Harrison [00:09:04] That he played 12 years and only won two super bowls with ten years. He had a losing season yet did not give his money back for those 10 seasons when he did not win

DJ: that presupposes or assumes, he’s getting paid to win. He’s not getting paid to win. He’s getting paid to play football never, ever does the contract say, “You must win,” it says you come out when you play football so that that assumes something that’s not really there.

Jerry: I have the text here. Apparently, he saw nothing wrong with collecting his reward for failure during that decade of [00:09:34] football without a championship.

DJ: Once again, he wasn’t rewarded for failure. He was paid, if you want to call it rewarded, for playing the game. No one…you can’t expect to win. You can’t be paid to win because you know, what, if you got paid the win, everyone on the Detroit Lions we be broke, they would never be getting paid.

Jerry: again, yes, it’s a but that would go back to just participating think about the actual salaries how much effort would they give everyone in the NFL or any professional leagues got a trophy just for coming out.

DJ: they won’t give an effort. [00:10:04] No, they wouldn’t and I think it reinforces a bad example because it basically says you don’t have to give an effort to achieve anything in life. It’s automatically going to be there for you.

Jerry: Well things have also changed when it comes to when you go to these youth games, especially hockey, well with hockey and football, these parents, they take it seriously more seriously

DJ: I think baseball, too

Jerry: then the kids to where they’re actually getting in brawls and fights over missed calls over. I’ve literally heard one person say [00:10:34] I texted the coach after a game, “I’m not driving my kid 25 miles to play three minutes. Does it three minutes in the whole hockey game?” I guess the kid got benched. So that was his way of telling the coach, I’m not bringing my son. He’s not going to play so that the parents take it to where they think they know better and they actually again go to a participation trophy that just because they show up, they have to play.

DJ: Well I question then who is a child playing for is he playing for?

Jerry: Travel team

[00:11:04] DJ: No, that’s not what I meant. There’s the parent vicariously living through the child or as a child playing for himself because he wants to play? Because if they’re if they only care about whether they win or lose or not, whether they play or not, it’s then I think it’s the parent that is vicariously living through the child. If the child wants to play and wants to participate even if it is only three minutes let them participate for three minutes.

Jerry: So, is that what the parents are trying to get that trophy through their children?

DJ: Well, I think the whole participation [00:11:34] trophy notion is for the parents. It’s not for the kids. It’s to make the parents feel good.

Jerry: Well again, but haven’t we raised this generation of children to what’s the word I’m looking for, expect entitlement that they’re entitled to something for their effort.

DJ: I think that is the problem with participation trophies. It leaves a sense of entitlement that they are entitled to something when they don’t earn it, but no offense, but look at the Millennials today. They come into the workforce. Thinking they should be the CEO immediately. They [00:12:04] should get a promotion every single year that’s automatically given to them that is what is the result, the effect of the cause of participation trophies

Jerry: or a direct product of

DJ: or cause and effect, correct?

Jerry: What we’ll how would you describe what is a partition a participation trophy then?

DJ: if you were to you get rewarded, it doesn’t necessarily need to be a trophy, it can be just a ribbon, but you get rewarded just for showing up and the problem with that is the child that works hard that wants to play plays hard does his best to improve is [00:12:34] equivalent to the child that’s out in right field picking clovers or looking up at the sky not paying attention to the game whatsoever

Jerry: not willing to work harder to get better

DJ: not caring. One cares and one doesn’t and they both get rewarded equally.

Jerry: See, that’s how the and that’s where the kids that actually work and they get all upset and there’s the tension comes in and they start to resent those players, the kids in right field, the ones that always get picked last because they’re actually getting the same reward for their effort. [00:13:04] Those guys are out there busting their butts shown up to practice early leaving late and they’re getting the same thing as a kid who doesn’t even care. So why should they show up?

DJ: Why should you work harder? Yeah, and that goes also into the workforce. Why should you work harder because someone else is going to get rewarded for work that they didn’t do?

Jerry: but at the end of the day, why is it bad to have a participation trophy?

DJ: Well, I think I just said it. It’s because it’s it leaves a sense of entitlement and leaves a child thinking [00:13:34] that they’re going to be rewarded regardless of effort.

Jerry: But at a young we’re talking five years old when they first start playing this sport. Should we be worried about their feelings and rewarding for their effort and not really about winning and losing? We’re talking at a young age and they first start playing the game.

DJ: Feelings, it always sucks to lose. So…

Jerry: Exactly

DJ: therefore, what you’re basically saying is don’t play the game don’t compete because you can’t win every single time. You’re going to lose some time in your life and it’s going to suck [00:14:04] you need to deal with it. That’s basically what you’re saying is don’t, and I’m against this to, not keeping score and that’s what leads to you don’t keep score because there are no winners or losers there. So, the no feelings are hurt. When that’s not reality. Reality is as soon as those kids grow up and I don’t care if you say 10 years old or even into the workforce. Their feelings are going to get hurt

Jerry: At some point

DJ: and they would be better prepared for it if their feelings had gotten hurt earlier and they you will learn to deal with it. Then have it happen to them when they’re [00:14:34] young adults and then they could get totally psychologically messed up.

Ryan: I think too, with like when it becomes like an object, like let’s say it is a participation trophy like a physical thing because yeah, you know, if you lose you can still like give some positive reinforcement to do better next time or just be like, you know, just keep at it but it’s like once it’s there’s an object involved where yeah that winning team or winning whatever gets something but then everybody gets it kind of just [00:15:04]

DJ: diminishes it

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Jerry: It dilutes it to where it’s…

Ryan: Totally

Jerry:  worth the same thing to one team that got it because the other ones that didn’t get it and that like well Duke last night. They’re hurting you see in their eyes, you know, they lost something they wouldn’t feel that way of every everybody, you know, in that tournament got a trophy.

DJ: I agree, I would be hurt to I when I when I lost especially big games like that last night it did hurt it stung, but you get over it you learn from that.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry: No, I agree. But the that [00:15:34] guess what now, whatever way that you’re talking about now, it isn’t about earning it. It’s about their feelings.

DJ: That’s a kinder gentler general parenting

Jerry: that if they don’t want to hurt their feelings, they want them to be rewarded just for the effort to wear it motivates them just to get up and go to the sport. Again, I’m going back to but at first, I want to open it up. They’re saying they have studies that their grades improve when they’re just literally given a reward for just showing up in a little soccer league with this was done. It was a five-year-old soccer league. That’s why I bring up early childhood development.

DJ: Well, let’s [00:16:04] move that then into the academic field. If you didn’t get an A-B-C-D or any way whatsoever, would that make them work harder the everyone gets a passing grade no matter what would they try? Because that is equivalent to our participation trophy.

Jerry: I would think no

DJ: you just show up and you get the grade. So what incentive is there if you do it equally like you do in the participation trophy to Academia? You would lead a generation of failures because no one would care anymore. There’d be no reason to try harder anymore.

Jerry: I [00:16:34] think it’s also a really kind of parenting. Our parents were hard on us to where now we kind of like protect our children. We kind of like do things for them. We don’t want them to wear our parents like, you know, get out there, you know, you got to learn and also called hard cold hard world out there. Get out golf tour now it’s you know, we’re coddling protecting them.

DJ: Generation X’s, which incidentally is a stupid name. Where it’s supposed to be lack of identity, but we’re identifying the very generation now so it’s a very [00:17:04] stupid name, but that’s beside the point. The problem is with the generation Xers is that parenting, they once again a rejecting the previous philosophical way of parenting and the bringing in I’m rejecting everything about the authoritarian type winner take all right or wrong philosophy and they’re totally going the exact opposite and they…you can always break it down to a Rush song, “Time After time we lose sight of the way our causes can’t see their effects” and that’s exactly what’s happening. They’re trying to do it to be nice and [00:17:34] the effect is it’s hurting their kids.

Jerry: Well, I can tell you now in the workforce. Just when I deal with having to work with some of the people there is an entitlement now to where and we have a couple, there are some mothers, daughters, aunts, nieces that are working there and they very protective, you know, I love of their siblings whatever nieces, so, they didn’t break the rules. snow must have an argue for them towards not them going out then turning it on their own. They almost want to do their work for them. Is that a result of you know, being rewarded just [00:18:04] for showing up?

DJ: its coddling, is what it is. The result of coddling.

Jerry: is the result of coddling kind of the result of participation trophies?

DJ: It is. When you, Ryan, when you do your MMA style fighting would you want to be rewarded if you lost?

Ryan: No, because I mean, you’re just not going anywhere, you know, it’s that’s the kind of why I like that sport. I mean it’s with any sport but it’s just like it’s just an easy thing to understand of winning and losing you know, they’re obviously [00:18:34] are decisions and stuff that be kind of, you know,

DJ: controversial

Ryan: controversial, Yeah, but it’s still there’s two people one’s going to be better than the other and that’s like how it comes down. So it’s like if you can’t wrap your head around that and figure out what you did wrong. Or if you won, you know, it’s like it’s just kind of simple as it gets

DJ: there’s a lesson even in the winning

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: because, at least in my point of view, because you still even when you win you’ve made mistakes.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: and you should learn from those mistakes and to be even better. So there’s a lesson also the winning but losing [00:19:04] it’s even a better lesson because you don’t really grow unless you make mistakes

Ryan: and it never feels good to lose and stuff at anything, but it’s like I kind of put this with games and stuff but you know, it’s like playing on my god mode like you can you’ll get bored of it so soon. So, if you’re like competing with teams that just suck or if you’re just going to steamroll them every time like you just get burnt out from whatever game you’re playing.

DJ: It’s no longer fun.

Ryan: Yeah

DJ; Or interesting.

Ryan: Yeah, so

DJ: totally [00:19:34] agree with you totally agree and that’s what participation trophy

Ryan: exactly

DJ: cause

Ryan: that could do that,

Jerry: Even back in the NFL from the Championships. I’m just including the Super Bowls, how many times the team go and lose the first time and then go back a second time and then win

DJ: because they learned a lesson they got from their mistakes and got better

Jerry:  they have set because they lost it hurts

DJ: and that losing was motivation to get better

Jerry: and then yes, they came back and they were madder than ever and concentrated focus and won. In the repeating here what happens get a little less [00:20:04] focused. The guy you beat last year is not coming back.

DJ: That’s why it’s always hard to repeat because you lose your focus and

Jerry: exactly

DJ: get a little bit of a big head and think you’re everything and next thing you know, the next team comes along and takes you over

Jerry: but I finally found this the part of this article here that was bringing in early on how it affects them in their later years going to college emphasizing participation over results early on will bring far more kids into the game, which is true. And what’s more important about that studies overwhelming show that [00:20:34] participation in sports is linked to better grades, lower Dropout rates, particularly among girls, an increased desire to attend college, but if they don’t participate when they’re young, they’re less likely to participate when they’re older.

DJ: You don’t need a participation trophy to get someone to participate. You can still participate and we did it when we were younger.

Jerry: Yeah, I get it. I agree. They’re using the science of a study again. It started younger five-year-old [00:21:04] soccer, you know how they have better grades. And again, I just read it. I don’t agree with it, but it’s almost sort of thing the psychobabble to whereas coddling the kids.

DJ: Okay, I have something about Early Education. This is from education news in January 13 2013. It’s entitled how the participation trophy culture has soften our kids. Today’s students from kindergarteners to high school seniors are losing out as physical education component of their education is being worked on in the labs of political [00:21:34] correctness. What is happening or rather not happening can be seen in school gymnasiums and on School Playgrounds Across America. The prevailing trend is that PC classes and recesses are becoming less about students need for physical activity and more about the educational Elites top-down pursuit of fairness agenda and a heightened call for social responsibility. For example, not long-ago dodgeball was a schoolyard bully sent into permanent timeout by several States in 2001 [00:22:04] the most iconic of all-time school activities was deemed by many experts as cruel, dangerous and counterproductive. They said the game destroyed self-esteem and created an unfair hierarchy on the playground which trickled into the halls and loomed over the classrooms. The spin continued as they asked what are the physical benefits when a less skilled and less athletic of the lot are always eliminated first and as a result forced to sit idly on the sidelines. Among the experts and their like-minded peers nurture [00:22:34] and not nature was and is still central to their philosophy. It is clear no one wants to see a child get injured by the hand of a fellow classmate, but for most children attempting to avoid a large red ball hurling at them should be instinctive. Moreover, the game is simple and an endless attempt to manipulate the rules, so as to promote equal results cannot always protect a child from a negative experience or guarantee a fun time. In fact, what many of these experts fail to accept is [00:23:04] that their inability to control outcomes reveals their frustration with a basic human nature because metaphorically speaking in Dodgeball and in life getting hit is inevitable. The ball stings in the experience is painful, you may be out of the game for a bit but the next round there lies opportunity and that’s the point losing can help you to learn a lesson to win.

Jerry: So, they’re there but they’re saying dodgeball was to be eliminated because it was

DJ: this actually happened in 2001. They started [00:23:34] in a lot of schools are in states around the country started outlining doctor did not know that there are still think it goes on today where you are not allowed to play dodgeball

Jerry: because it affects your self-esteem because they get out they get knocked out first.

Ryan: Oh, it’s like that. Like the most basic sporty like you get hit like you’re out, you know,

DJ: it’s like true and it’s to me growing up, it was one of the easiest to play

Jerry: It was one of the most fun to play too, you got out of the way and you got hit you got mad the next game like it said you went out and you learned that you run this time or you catch the ball.

DJ: Once [00:24:04] again, it wasn’t the kids that cause this. It was a Generation X parents

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: who settled that touchy feeling that doesn’t feel good or it’s not good to knock someone out.

Jerry: So, was it them who got knocked out?

DJ: So, I think it all…it’s kind of the results of and when, remember where we’re in childhood recess out in

Jerry: yeah

DJ: lunchtime and you’d pick teams.

Jerry: Yeah,

DJ: and someone always got picked last that’s what happens.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ:  there were trying to feel good for those people and that got picked last, that just happens

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: the little kids still played. Even [00:24:34] though you got picked last you still got picked. You still got on the team. I’m talking about recess. Now, you still played

Jerry: and during recess you’d have the class Misfits tackle the star running back on blacktop.

DJ: Yes, so but the point is, yeah, someone’s going to get picked last. Someone is going to fail but they still get to participate. You still don’t need to be forced to have a trophy to participate and it takes the fun out of the game, especially when we’re talking about dodgeball. I mean, that’s a fun game. And then now what do you [00:25:04] mean all physical activity is bad because you might lose what’s the point of PE then?

Ryan: Yeah, it’s true and you want to have like Rivals and stuff because that’s like if you take even football and you know Sports now, like everyone wants to watch the teams that you know compete the best with each other, you know,

Jerry: That’s the heart of competition

Ryan: exactly

Jerry: both of you brought up the operative word, compete. In competition what they’re trying what participate trophy does is try to erase competition. We have no score in the winners. There’s no competition everyone [00:25:34] thinks competition. Or not everyone. A lot of people think competition is the enemy and in fact is metaphorically speaking if you’re in a race, and you can’t you’re running and you someone’s your it’s just you and someone else and they’re 10 feet behind you. Are you going to run? This hard is when the right next to you and you’ve  got to push to get to the heart to the to the Finish Line first, which of those two scenarios are you going to be a better competitor? When you have another competitor with you next to you just as good as you

Jerry: when they are on your [00:26:04] heels

DJ: when you’re competing. The point is competition makes us better. It doesn’t hurt us. It doesn’t make us worse. Yes, you’re going to lose that is inevitable as life, but it makes us better.

Jerry: Yeah, and I also think it makes it to the kids how to prepare for those moments in life when they get smacked down. They can be hard to accept that. You know, someone said no, they lost finally or they weren’t rewarded for their efforts just to try they showed up today for work so they should get something else

DJ: when we were kids and played baseball. [00:26:34] When were we were awarded to go the Dairy Queen was when we lost when we won

Jerry: only Victory

DJ: only when we won and that was an incentive. Even though wasn’t a trophy that that meant something so we had to win to do it. And even though we missed out on that ice cream at the end. We didn’t become worse people because of it. We tried better the next time to get that ice cream and win so

Jerry: I think sometimes the coach is want us to lose because they’re the pocketbooks and

DJ: that’s a different issue, but I would agree but [00:27:04] the point is the point that was in a way that ice cream was a trophy

Jerry: absolutely, it was a reward for winning the game and was even better with you on the whole season districts playoffs is your more pizza parties afterwards.

DJ: So, you talk about the coach’s pocketbook. Today’s world would be you get it you get an ice cream no matter what so that that coach is going to be paying for ice cream for everybody, every single game so there’s nothing left in his pocketbook according to today’s world.

Jerry: It didn’t follow his game plan. So, I guess the only way it’s [00:27:34] going to be that next wave to come and reject it because you know, how they you can overcome the entitlement that’s going to be a tough call but participation trophies are growing in momentum. That’s not going away

DJ: I think that rejections already happened you brought up James Harrison and I brought up Kurt Warner. I think it’s already happening you and I reject it. I assume Ryan rejects it. I think it’s happening. The problem is this is philosophical it’s political correctness. I said it before when you are politically correct, you’re taking the fourth level of philosophy and moving [00:28:04] it up to the number one level and in order to be politically correct, that becomes primary and there is the problem. I would rather be philosophically correct then politically correct you what would you just think in terms of what is derived from another politics is not the end all be all. In fact, it’s derived from your ethics good and what’s right and wrong determines what is political and all that matters to them is the politics, number one,

Jerry: the whole PC movement is just that, feelings. Not being so blunt [00:28:34] to one person.

DJ: I blame this on George H W Bush remember when he said we’re going to be a Kinder gentler nation?  That was it and they took their cue and they ran with it because that’s what this is a Kinder gentler parenting. So, we don’t want to spank our kids now and I know you probably didn’t get punished. Remember we got spanked

Jerry: correct

DJ: today you spank your child, you’re going to go to jail,

Ryan: you know you can’t hit your kid.

DJ: Yeah even worse.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jerry: Yeah Social [00:29:04] Services shows up, yep

DJ: this is all the philosophical wave that needs to be rejected and

Ryan: sorry. Have you seen the documentary Trophy Kids? I think that’s what it’s called.

DJ: Was that the HBO one if it wasn’t the no, I haven’t seen it.

Ryan: It’s Mark Bell. I think he’s the guy that did it and he’s done like a few and it’s kind of like what we’re talking about here, but more or less just like I think maybe this is why it’s come to this because they kind of focus on a few families [00:29:34] and it’s like these kids that are playing these Sports and their parents or just like just super strict on them, you know, like they got to train all the in they’re like not even teenagers yet, and it’s just like this documentary kind of focusing in like is this right is this wrong? Like and it’s I think this might have kind of stuff like that

Jerry: I think I’ve seen something like that. Where you’re talking that they’re really putting these kids through these academies for baseball.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jerry: at seven, six start out six seven years old

Ryan: they’re training just like all [00:30:04] day. Yeah, like they’re just being groomed. Obviously.

Jerry: That’s what it is. They’re being groomed for the college recruitment

Ryan: and whatnots. Yeah,

Jerry: the football kids are even going to these Hardball and Nick Saban at ten years old.


Yeah. It’s like crazy

DJ: Ostensively, I think it could be for college or to groom them for college or the NFL but I really think it’s the parents living vicariously through their kids. They want it

Ryan: yeah that’s kind of the underlying thing and it’s like, you know, whenever the kid does something wrong and it’s like showing like kind [00:30:34] of I guess both sides of that where it’s just like they do bad like

Jerry: where their parents are super strict on them, super. I mean failure isn’t an option and they get punished to the core

DJ: we’re talking exact opposite I was talking about

Ryan: but this is where I’m just saying, I think people that are like this shouldn’t be how it is because I’m not going to stress on my kid like that

Jerry: It’s too hard.

Ryan: Yes,

Jerry: but that was the opposite thing was that there was no a feelings there was no it was all about results and that they were more punished than they were rewarded because it [00:31:04] was hard because he had a young age. I think I was a figure skater that was in there was a young football player and these again, both of them had skills above any other kids once they were recognized that the parents took them and just start grooming him because like what you said, they wanted the other kids to all those big scholarships, but the big payday in the sports so they can be taken care of so Dad can quit the…I mean I don’t know how many times I think I heard that and one of those things about I want to retire and you are I think I heard that you are my retirements.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry: That one kid [00:31:34] was a football player it was again; it was living through the kid. That’s what it was

DJ: we’ve talked about the two extremes, of those two extremes. Honestly, I’d rather have the most disciplinarian, I wouldn’t say that I would do

Ryan: that is, what we just talked about his beyond it, but it’s like

Jerry: it made them better.

Ryan: Yeah,

Jerry: he’s good to go up. They had skill and they were looking

DJ: to transfer that over into Academia. Like we’re talking earlier, a while back there was someone called a tiger mom who would really force her kid to do good in school play piano hours on [00:32:04] time and it made her really good and made her excel at Academia. It worked. I’m not saying once again, it’s the extreme and I would do that but it worked it got her to be a better a better student. So, I mean we’re talking two extremes here

Jerry: correct

DJ: of the two I would go with the more disciplinarian.

Jerry: Well, they’re going to be better off. Yeah, because they’ll take no skill to wear the exact opposite these participation trophies. They’re just being when water for shown up and the do anything to of the other one [00:32:34] we’re talking about those kids had to work.

Ryan: Yeah.

DJ: I mean one question is then when those kids grow up or they’re going to reject that philosophy and you turn the light on.

Ryan: I think that’s what we’re kind of talking about too, they obviously can’t talk to him tell then but it’s like this going to be good for that. It could be and you know something maybe you can’t, you know,

DJ: That’s that philosophical wave I’m talking about another that when those kids grow up. I bet you they’re going to ride a wave that’s going to crash ashore and say no we will wipe out everything that generation, my parents did and do a totally different. I don’t want to be treated that way.

Jerry: They’ll be some that’ll say [00:33:04] it worked for me. My dad did this to me? I’ll do it to you then the others to where I’m not going to do that to my kid.

Ryan: Yeah.

DJ: Yes

Ryan: well and to have like the option because some I think what they focus on that movie like to is like some of the kids didn’t even want to be doing this and it’s like a had no that’s like a whole other

DJ: if you’re forcing your kid and they don’t want to they’re not into it. Then I’m not for that.

Jerry: They won’t succeed and they didn’t

DJ: if they’re into it if they’re into it. Then I can understand it at least of the scent that the end being that they’re going to get going for the scholarship [00:33:34] or the Collegiate scholarship in the NFL. But if they’re not into it and you’re forcing them then I know it’s the parents doing it for themselves not doing it for that.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry:  I think a couple was baseball where the kid he had the skill. He just didn’t want to play baseball but the parents were no I think one of the coaches told them he’s you know, he could be the next Mike Trout the five-star athlete and baseball which is rare. The kid doesn’t like baseball and yet they just made him gone again. His skill alone was getting them through but he hated it just hated [00:34:04]

DJ: part of succeeding his passion and if that child did not like baseball, there’s no passion there. He wants it. He he may win a game or two, but he won’t further his career on it. All of it would be a waste of effort because no passion. He’ll end up quitting.

Jerry: well walk away and just discussed how many times we’ve seen that in hockey where kids are just great and they just said hey, I’m sick of my dad’s all over me and just I’m done walked away from it and they were just had skill that we will you and I wanted to have him couldn’t figure out why wouldn’t you play? They just hated it that much [00:34:34] because of how they were pushed into it, you know forced, you know, the score that winning goal.

DJ: This is, I guess the topic isn’t necessarily participation trophies as bad parenting

Ryan: Yeah, but…

Jerry: which kind of leads to where you know, you go into the participation trophy because you don’t want to be that bad parent you want to reward the kid just for trying

Ryan: and yeah, there’s that too because if these people are, you know, up-and-coming athletes if they had participation trophies if that was like was implemented when they were, you know, perfecting [00:35:04] their skills. It’s like would that have further them to become like have this become a career and stuff like that. Maybe they would just plateaued you know, and not

DJ: exactly

Ryan: push themselves

Jerry: correct.

DJ: How about

Ryan: the balance?

DJ: Did you get any participation trophies growing up?

Ryan: I might have in some way but it wasn’t really like

DJ: well then, the way you save might have it somewhere that tells me you didn’t hang on to him. He didn’t care about him that much see I’m well, I only one in baseball going on one Championship one [00:35:34] and I cherish that trophy because we won it wasn’t just like you just said I doesn’t matter just thrown away. So, I’m wondering if those participation even really mean something. How many of those kids actually kept them and actually cared about them because I think the kids aren’t stupid. They know they got it for doing nothing. So it’s not going to mean as much to them

Jerry: I think the younger kids a five year old’s, they you know liked it.

DJ: Well they liked it then, I’ll talking about later. Later in life. It was just it doesn’t really matter like throw it away missing.

Ryan: Yeah. [00:36:04] Well and I got did like martial arts stuff and like the thing that I felt different that it’s more or less how you might want to look at it is just like I was proud even if I didn’t get the gold, but if I got even someone like I was happy for it, like obviously at one of the top one but it’s like, you know, you obviously just kind of have to look at what you did wrong and do better and it’s just like doing it was fun. You know, I mean,

DJ: absolutely

Ryan: I think that’s just what

DJ: that’s the key.

Ryan: That’s what you got [00:36:34] to be like teaching kids and stuff like that because you know didn’t deter me to be able you screw this, I’m not doing this anymore. It’s, you know, try to get it next time.

Jerry: Work harder, yeah.

DJ: It’s achievement. I mean you talk about martial arts. When I did martial arts. I was more of an adult when I did but still it was going through all the incremental belt colors.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: I felt like I achieved every single time that I got one. I was getting better and better it wasn’t necessarily the trophy of the belt. It was the achievement of it that I was I was learning. I was becoming better able to defend myself

Ryan: and [00:37:04] you know, you see other people that could do something that you can you know, I mean, there’s always that it’s just like, you know, and you want to drive her drive.

DJ: Yeah precisely

Jerry: speaking of that how many tests that we go to where we walk up and look at black belts and say wow, that guy’s good that guy Goods. He sucks. How do you get his belt?

Ryan: {laughs}

Jerry: How’d you do that?

Ryan: They are

DJ: that’s participation belt

Ryan: yeah, that’s there is that I’ve

Jerry: self-esteem kind of thing, you know, we heard that before.

DJ: Oh, absolutely

Jerry: they’re given the belts for self(esteem), even the adults I get the kids but even the adults from the guy who could barely tie his you [00:37:34] know belt because he was a little bit too big.

Ryan: That’s not good

DJ: they didn’t deserve it. They shouldn’t have gotten I mean we’re talking about justice here in philosophy, just as means they shouldn’t have received it. They should have just waited until they actually could achieve that skill that level of skill and then gotten it. Or received it

Jerry: Well, I think it feels safe to our society realizes that participation trophies are not helping it’s like going to get worse because it’s leaning toward to where more and more and more. They will just you know rewards [00:38:04] you for your effort winning and losing doesn’t matter and that’s a quote

DJ: that’s sad.

Jerry: It is very sad,

DJ: and I think that’s what’s going to hurt is because the kids aren’t going to…you wouldn’t lose willing to lose his about life you’re going lose a lot more than win.

Jerry: World War I and World War II did it count did it matter?

DJ: Yes, and that’s why I it’s why I brought the whole thing up about my grandpa is that think about their ethos, what was in their culture? I mean going through those the Great Depression, World War I, World War II, they had [00:38:34] to be men they had his win or you die. It was a matter of survival and that was a part of their time

Jerry: correct

DJ: and now we don’t have those wars

Jerry:  people

DJ: we don’t have those hard times

Jerry: people will say that was their culture that was a different time not this time. It’s different. We’re more modern to her back in World War I that wasn’t technology advanced.

DJ: I think we’ve been coddled and lazy, I really think are the Next Generation

Jerry: as you advance. We have absolutely [00:39:04]

DJ: ask yourself this, the Millennials today if they got thrown into World War II, would they have been able to stepped-up like those guys did back in, would they be able to win that war based on the helicopter parenting and the participation trophies. I don’t think the effort would be there.

Ryan: No, it wouldn’t look good.

DJ: I think we would lose

Jerry: they they’re going to want their video controllers or their cell phones and their I’m thinking about defend the country.

DJ: The point is it had to happen and they were products of their time and now kids are these kids are [00:39:34] products of their parents part of the parents time because they were rejecting that authoritarian type.

Jerry: I believe being set up for failure, but that’s just me.

DJ: I totally agree.

Ryan: I agree too. Do I get a trophy?

DJ: (laughs)

Jerry: (laughs) yeah

DJ: So I guess if we’re going to end this thing with talk about the philosophical waves, the last question I’ll leave is when is the next philosophical wave going to bring me closer to everyone else in this world? Because right now I think [00:40:04] I am

Jerry: getting farther apart

DJ: leagues apart from everyone else. Anyways, you’re listening to The Grand Design podcast. You can get in touch with us at Our email is GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. Instagram is @GrandDesignsPodcast and follow us on Twitter @GrandDesignsPodcast,  This is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

Participation Trophies

A paradigm shift happened when the Generation Xer’s became parents. Instead of the parental treatment of previous generations, Generation Xer’s rejected the cold harsh way their parents raised them and sought a kindlier and gentler mode of upbringing. Why did this shift happen? It definitely didn’t arise out of a vacuum. What could have led up to such a dynamic change of parenting styles for both education and sports?

  If anyone were to study the history of philosophy, they could easily see that philosophical trends happen in waves. Philosophical waves crash unto the shore, leaving behind its imprint and impressions on the sand and beaches. Not too long afterwards, another philosophical wave hits the shore, wiping out the impressions of the previous wave and leaving behind impressions and an impact of its own. This cycle happens in perpetuity. The Socrates/Plato philosophy was the first wave to crash the shore that had lasting impact. Plato’s most famous student, Aristotle, rejected most of what Socrates/Plato said and caused a mighty wave of his own, wiping out a lot of the impressions of the previous Socratic wave. The Aristotelian wave was kept alive during the Dark Ages by a few Arabic philosophers but really came to flourish after St. Thomas Aquinas. This sustained wave ushered in the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. However, soon after the Modern age of philosophy was ushered in, another wave was building to wipe the Aristotelian impressions away led by the likes of Hegel, Immanuel Kant and, later, Karl Marx. Each wave rejecting the previous philosophical wave.

 The generation prior to the Baby Boomers and the Boomers themselves lived through a culture whose ethos necessitated a certain way of life. Living during World War I, the birth of Communism, The Great Depression, the rise of Fascism in Europe and, finally, culminating in World War II, caused a winner-take-all, hard-nosed, authoritarian way of taking on life. This ethos was necessary just to survive such tumultuous times. With that influence came a certain way of raising their children and certain way of playing sports. This philosophical wave lasted until the late 1960’s when the counter-culture and sexual revolution rejected the previous way of looking at life.

  Generation X comes along and thoroughly rejects influences imprinted by the Baby Boomer generation and its predecessor. These parents wanted an easier time for their children, especially in sports. Thus, the Participation Trophy culture sprang into life. Where kids would be rewarded, not based on the final outcome of the games or the season, but just for showing up and participating. The purpose, through the parent’s eyes, was to be “fairer” to everyone who played. But they failed to ask themselves, fairer to whom? Was it fair to the to the athlete that really strived to do better, to improve his skills, that, in the end, would be treated exactly the same as the child that didn’t care and looked at the clovers in right filed or, through mere boredom, looked skyward? These parents did not foresee the effect of their cause: a generation of kids with a sense of entitlement.

  In his 2008 article, The Trophy Kids Grow Up: How the Millennial Generation is Shaking Up the Workplace, Ron Alsop wrote, “If there is one overriding perception of the millennial generation, it’s that these young people have a great-and sometimes outlandish – expectations…’They want to be CEO tomorrow,’ is a common refrain from corporate recruiters. More than 85% of hiring managers and human resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by”

  Ashley Merryman, co-author of Top Dog: The Science of Winning and Losing wrote, “If you tell a kid they’re wonderful and they believe you, then it just confirms their belief and that’s not about healthy self-esteem, that’s about narcissism.” She also wrote a New York Times op-ed entitled, Losing is Good for You, where she addressed another concern about participation trophies, that they don’t give kids room to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. “It’s fine to say, ‘You didn’t go to all of the games. You didn’t practice soccer. The other kid worked really hard and did really well and he deserves a trophy and you should go over and congratulate him.’ That a hard lesson, but an important lesson. So, I would rather have kids realize that they can make mistakes and move on then have them find out the first time in their lives, when they are in their teens and 20’s, that not everyone is going to give them a trophy.”

 Ultimately, the question becomes who is the participation trophies actually for, the parent’s feelings or the child’s? Other than keeping the trophy businesses thriving, participation trophies do more harm than good. It boils down to a question most Generation X parents don’t ask themselves, ignore or simply just don’t care, is giving a reward or trophy to someone who doesn’t deserve it justice? The answer to that is, most emphatically, NO! To Generation X parents, their own feelings matter more than justice.