Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 4 – Officiating in Professional Sports Transcript

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This is Grand Design podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand. Where we link th chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

[00:00:34]DJ: Welcome to episode 4 of the Grand Designs podcast. My name is DJ Grand. And once again, I’m joined by my brother Jerry.

Jerry: Hello.

DJ: Today, we’re going to be discussing officiating and how it relates to the games, all games. We did believe discussion NBA officiating as well as the NHL. Basically, the officials are the police judge and jury of these games. They are the ones that are the purveyors of justice and when [00:01:04] they don’t do their jobs, then games aren’t just and unfair.

Jerry: I think what we’re going to discuss and find out that most of these leagues NBA, NFL not so much the Major League Baseball as of yet, but the NHL, the leagues are picking the teams that are going to advance by mandating such things to these referees. Case in point will get in the NBA in a little bit. But first off, its the Saints and Rams game now, that was the most horrible [00:01:34] non-call in the history of the game,

DJ: Especially for the time of the year, yes, it was.

Jerry: the most critical goal in the Super Bowl the NFC Championship. Grant it,  had that call but in week 6, no big deal forget about it. Go on to the next week week seven, live to play another week because it was for the Super Bowl fans took that too literally to the nth degree to what you were saying last week that a Senator put on the floor to go ahead and do what?

DJ: They wanted to do to make sure a reply were going go a [00:02:04] NFL Replay.

Jerry: A do-over more or less and that just isn’t going to happen again week six doesn’t care about but week seven we got legislation in the US government you had a fan or a lawyer who was a fan of the Saints, sue the NFL for one of the reason was lack of life or lack of enjoyment of life because of the lost game and that one call.

DJ: Silly

Jerry: Very silly, but the call was literally egregious and I still haven’t heard the reason why it wasn’t called [00:02:34] from the NFL but I’m going to basically throughout the show

DJ: Didn’t come out and say it was human error?

Jerry: Yeah, but it wasn’t human error that the ref was right there and you even though the replay you seen the chief ref, the white hat, looking right at the play and he’s the one that can overrule any referee on that field and he was looking right at it.

DJ: They always say they don’t want any part of the narrative. I’ll bring this back up again later when we talk about the NHL but that non-call made them part of the narrative.

Jerry: But if you started the show off they were there for [00:03:04] the purveyors of Justice.

DJ: They are

Jerry: whether it’s in the first two minutes or last two seconds of the game a penalty is a penalty and the one ref at the goal line was right there looking at it and it was a blatant no call. I still haven’t heard what happened to him if he’s fired her be as a job yet. Yes, that was from Roger Goodell, but that’s I’m going to basically explain what I don’t think so because the NFL known is known for tinkering with drafts and I can go back to I’m sure Lions fans can recall, I think it was a couple years ago. They were in the playoffs, [00:03:34] they played in Dallas they’re playing pretty well. They’re going to win. The referees called an interference on the Dallas Cowboys. That flag was called or thrown, they called it. They got into a group to discuss it as they should. Dez Bryant went on the field with no helmet. Now, right there, that’s a penalty right there. So, I’ll get back to that. They picked up the penalty flag. No call, after a lengthy discussion. And when everyone may not know every discussion is with the New York the [00:04:04] NFL in New York. There’s a head ref. Last year. It was Dean Blandino. He’s now a referee analyst for Fox Sports. I think they have a new person. I do not know his name, but that referee he’s calling all these judgment calls and he’s talking to these refs and they picked that flag up. What do you want the playoffs? Who’s going to sell more and it’s about television is not seats its television. What’s going to sell the Dallas Cowboys or Detroit Lions.

DJ: Nationally, It’ll be the Cowboys

Jerry: Every day of the week. So, the flag was picked up [00:04:34] and nothing was said about Dez Bryant coming off trying to justify that it wasn’t interference. And that was right there a 15-yard penalty which would give the Lions a first down and the game would have been changed. The narrative would have been changed where the Lions win, but that’s a whole other subject.

DJ: Well, once again the refs became part of the narrative when they said that’s their excuse of not making a call as they don’t want to be part of the narrative. Yet, they were part of the narrative.

Jerry: and we talked about it last week the tuck rule, which is famous for Tom Brady. And if you listen to Jerry Rice, there was no such rule before that game. If you watch the film that [00:05:04] was a fumble by every rule

DJ: No doubt about it.

Jerry: But now at the time three minutes was the limit if the rest could not be clear and defined on the call, they had to go with on the field that went over six minutes and they basically at the time was Paul Tagliabue who basically told the head ref will make the rule for it tomorrow. It’s an incomplete pass right now because that fumble sealed the Raiders victory

DJ: And they wanted [00:05:34] the Patriots

Jerry: NFL has a narrative. So, they’re using the referees why the referees I’m surprised one hasn’t come out but we’re going to find one has because he got in the wrong means of it. He was gambling and got hooked up to where he was calling games for his aspect the NBA official Tim Donaghy, but if it happens in the NBA and I can see it happening in the NFL now it’s making sense before I did I could not figure out why these calls are being made in a good written other to back up my reasoning [00:06:04] the very the second Drive of the Super Bowl. The Rams made a top-notch play. It was third down and 10 screen pass. It was blown up by the Rams. The ref called the penalty on someone else that did not even come close what he was called for which is defensive holding or being a defensive player. 

DJ: It was a ghost penalty.

Jerry: Yes, correct. And that was almost like the Michigan guy who was a running back who got called for holding and he was being held it.

DJ: Higdon

Jerry: Higdon, correct.

DJ: It was against Iowa, I think

Jerry: Same thing I think [00:06:34] for these things to happen at these points. It’s almost like the Rams are being paid back for that no call and using the referees for their agenda, their mandates.

DJ: I wish I could defend them, I wish I could say they’re being objective and making a mistake. But in this instance, I don’t think they were I think there was a plan and they were there were following by what they were told from above speculation because I have no proof of it. But that’s what was, it was indicated anyways to me.

Jerry: Correct. [00:07:05] Now, I’m going to use an interview it was published on May 24 2018. Chris Krauss was the interviewer and he interviewed Tim Donaghy. Tim Donaghy is the referee for the NBA who was notorious for a betting Scandal. He foresees NCAA players fixing games as sports betting becomes legal. Now, during his interview he has some very awesome questions, the first being when you first heard the US Supreme Court ruling what were your thoughts? Now, Donaghy he is saying his first thoughts were that [00:07:35] it was long overdue and sports leagues are now going to take advantage of the fact that gambling is legal and do everything they can to capitalize on the revenue and get a piece of the pie which is all about the money.

DJ: I see no problem with them taking advantage of gambling as long it’s legal. I mean, I’m not for gambling. I think it’s irrational but if it’s legal it is what it is.

Jerry: I agree now when you get into legal bookmakers, are legal bookmakers going to have trouble getting the better to move over from the illegal Market can the legal Market succeed? I think people are still [00:08:05] going to, this is Donaghy, I think people are still going to go to local bookies for a lot of reasons. They’re going to want to avoid paying taxes when they win and stay away from paying any fees to the League’s. Now, the leagues are going to get fees from these gambling’s now which is all more money for them, which is why the NBA’s promoting it.

DJ: I think so. It’s not just that, they’re going to stay away from it. Not just because I taxes didn’t mean that’s just the easy route. That’s what they’re going to do eyes are cast down on the path of least resistance.

Jerry: I agree.

DJ: I mean they do the office pools all the time now, I mean, so it has nothing to do least [00:08:35] in my point of view.

Jerry:  It’s not going to go in the back seat.

DJ: It’s still going happen

Jerry: Now, he does he told for the NCAA but he’s more concerned about the NBA which is where he’s from and he’s asking them have the NBA cleaned up their act with regard to how referees officiate? Now, this is Tim Donaghy responding back. No, I don’t think it’s cleaned up. I still see referees officiating based on the names on the front and back of jerseys and not based on how the rules are written in the rule book. I still see officials advancing in the playoffs who have a poor performance [00:09:05] and embarrass the league. A prime example is NBA referee Zack Zarba. At the end of game five in the Boston-Philadelphia Eastern Conference semifinal Series, this would be last year, he missed two critical calls that would have most likely given Philadelphia the win. Instead, the series is over and it cost that franchise millions of dollars. Who knows? Maybe they go back to Philly. Maybe they win game six and it goes to Game 7 and yet he Advanced to the third round of the playoffs. And the NCAA, if a college basketball official has a poor game [00:09:35] like that. He doesn’t advance to the next round. It’s the Same Old Situation with the NBA in regard to referees advancing based on relationships they have had with whoever their supervisor is.

DJ: To me, it’s about moral relatively versus moral objectivity. Its relative based on where they’re at. Who’s playing? Like, you said the it was based on popular players. I mean, that’s total relativism.

Jerry: Well, the next question [00:10:05] even gesture that even more Are the referees giving players start treatment because of personal preference or is there something more to it you proved you talked about the 2006 Maverick Heat NBA Finals as a series where the referees were given a mandate to rough a certain way. That’s the MBA telling the Refs

DJ: I was going to say mandated by whom, but. Go ahead

Jerry: the NBA the commissioner in a manner that extended the series. Do you believe there are mandates in place today with regard to how it referees officiate? Now, Donaghy answers back that stars get the benefit of an [00:10:35] extra step and the ability to go to the line more than other people do. It’s just that way. It’s this way it’s been and it’s been that way for always going to be.

DJ: That doesn’t justify it, it’s basically saying that I can skirt the rules because that’s the way it’s always been

Jerry: For whatever the reason, things haven’t changed. If they want to change it and say they have integrity and look at all this stuff, they shouldn’t Advance these referees that make critical mistakes. Now, you got to go back to this mandate that’s back when it was game five of the series between the Heat and the Mavericks. Mavericks win [00:11:05] game 6 the series is over now. The Heat win game 6 it goes to 7, so they were told before that game to mandate that the goes to Game 7. Dallas had no chance.

DJ: Am I wrong but didn’t something happen against with the bad boys to something with the Trailblazers?

Jerry: Well, it’s probably now that you going back twenty-nine years and that was the Portland Trailblazers, their second defense, they won the first year their defending it now, they’re playing in the finals and that your Portland never [00:11:35] lost at home. They were undefeated home. They come to the first two games and they split with Detroit and they’re on the plane saying we’re not coming back. We’re going to win the next three in Portland. They don’t win one game. Now, Lambier is hated among everyone, everywhere. He’s the evil person and he was getting flop calls. They weren’t even touching them and they were calling the other team for charging. Duckworth, he was their Center, it got into his head so bad, It took them off their game completely and Detroit did what no other team [00:12:05] could do the whole year. They beat him three times straight. They were right. It wasn’t going back to Detroit but I wondered that time that was those calls. I mean he was acting Lambier was acting.

DJ: There’s a couple issues there, is it right for Lambier to act and get away with it there talk about integrity. There’s no Integrity to that. But if we’re going to concentrate on the officials, if they’re doing their job, what they’re there for, they should be calling every single infraction and that is an infraction

Jerry: but when they have a mandate, this team doesn’t [00:12:35] win. This literally this goes to now they’re not saying the Mavericks win tonight. What they’re saying is its game six, the series going seven. So, they were mandated for that series to be extended one more game.

DJ: You may lose your job. But if you’re living by principles, you still call it

Jerry: Principles out the out the window now it’s not even in this but then he goes back and he’s have you ever seen any playoff series since you’ve been out of the game that made you wonder what’s going on similar to the 2006 Maverick series? Not to that extent. I think when you talk about a series [00:13:05] like that and the one that the Lakers in 2001 advancing were Sacramento should have won a championship those referees back then Dick Bavetta and Bob Delaney guys who would openly talk about big Market teams and teams down the series that you need to give the benefit of the call. So now it’s not how you’re playing the game. It’s not how the rules are written and that’s what Donaghy’s point is it’s the location market and who’s down in the series.

DJ: The Very definition of moral relativism, its relative on where [00:13:35] playing at. What time the game is at or what time in the season?

Jerry: Why does the league do this?

DJ: I would say for money and fans

Jerry: Absolutely because it’s all about television deals and it’s really all coming clear reading this interview like with the NFL their biggest money the owners make a huge amount of money off the ESPN and Fox and the TV deals in these are huge deals. An owner now back in before the TV was big before the Super Bowl change the culture, if no one came to the game the owner [00:14:05] is upset and he’s firing people. Nowadays, the stadium could be empty and the owner would not feel a thing because of the money.

DJ: they’re still getting paid, they have a good TV contract

Jerry: Billions from the TV. So, all goes back to now big Market teams, they’re paying these TV commercials. What’s going to draw more fans to watch this series?

DJ: Wasn’t big Market versus small Market one of the reasons for the 2004 or I think it was 2003-2004 labor dispute in the NHL that [00:14:35] the big Market teams Detroit, the Rangers

Jerry: The salary cap.

DJ: Yeah, wasn’t it one reason for change?

Jerry: Yeah, because the small Market teams didn’t have a shot against the big Market teams. Well, that was just a salary cap because Detroit was spending how much? And as you pointed out earlier, buying the cup because they could to where teams like Pittsburgh and Nashville, they don’t have the resources Detroit or New York does because of size of population. They couldn’t compete so the NHL came up with an idea of a hard [00:15:05] salary cap to make it equal which we can’t be equal but everyone spends the same amount of money that it’s a hard cap. You can’t go over but when the referees are being told

DJ: How to how to officiate-

Jerry: How to officiate a certain way then it doesn’t matter about salary caps. The league has found a way to get around to where it doesn’t matter about the salary caps anymore. Like the Yankees in baseball. They don’t care about the luxury tax. They’re going to pay and they are going to win. I think Illitch the first couple [00:15:35] years didn’t care about it. But then for some reason after a couple years of that it didn’t like it and reigned back to salaries, hence, Verlander was traded, Cabrerra’s salary was a huge mess of a contract but the point being is Mike Illitch want to spend money. He wanted to win championships now

DJ: and it maybe to their own detriment. I can see this actually turning the fans off especially in the small Market teams their teams. I mean, you’re rooting for your team to go all the way and if they don’t have a chance [00:16:05] eventually they’re going to give up and say I’m done with this.

Jerry: Yes.

DJ: I see it hurting them.

Jerry: If the the NFL didn’t have any competition until this past weekend with the AAF or whatever

DJ: AAF, yes

Jerry: From what the first reviews are, they like it better, the fans like it better than the NFL but they’re doing some different things officiating that there are no TV timeout. It’s a much quicker game

DJ: I think it’s and you can hear the calls by the quarterback. I think you’re getting more involvement. It’s almost interactive with the fans where the NFL isn’t.

Jerry: [00:16:35] I didn’t pay attention the first week I’ll have to because I like to see how the games were officiated because everyone can see the calls now. On TV the cameras everywhere. These calls don’t go on missed. The referees miss it but the fans all over the place and even the ones are at their homes can see it clear as day. And that’s where I think it’s going to go towards the robotic or the computers calling these games. It’s going to be tough in hockey and football, but baseball is already doing it

DJ: and baseball with the strike zone

Jerry: a little box and that that’s going to become to where it isn’t going [00:17:05] to have a human error it’s going to be the computer calling strikes and you can’t argue with the computer now,

DJ:I think the refs, they will lose their job or at least the most of them. This is where it’s going to lead to where we’re going to have automated officiating. I mean, if you go to baseball you could have the cameras seeing who was safe at second with the slide or whatever. You don’t need someone standing there with their non-objective call, which could once again affect The Narrative of the game and then I guess the robot [00:17:35] would be total objective

Jerry: Now, agree because Donaghy also points out that officials are afraid to blow the whistle with 20,000 people screaming at them while yet some love to have the crowd go against them. So now you got referees just blowing it on their ego. while attention,

DJ: Once again, it’s the same

Jerry: It goes against the whole adjusting the being just of or the what Injustice in the calm that playwright or

DJ: because it’s based on a moral relativism.  

Jerry: but it has nothing to do with the police in the league now in a [00:18:05] objective way. There are definitely things behind the scenes is becoming more and more like and I didn’t want to believe this the WWE, they’re picking the winners and these guys even know beforehand going into the match who’s when it’s all choreographed. It’s getting to that point the NFL already choreographs  their drafts meaning they dictate whether the players they want to go and that can be proven in the 83 drafted Marino to Elway. I mean, there are so many things the NFL stepped in and [00:18:35] just blew because they literally said who’s going where and there’s documented.

DJ: To get back to the officiating, I wish I could tell the difference if it’s actually mandated right from up above or if the officials are just corrupt. I mean, it could be either one and they both could be corrupt

Jerry: That’s kind of hard to tell but when you get into the big Market in the NFL or anyone the leagues wanting one certain team will run. I’m gonna start paying attention to the little market teams because they started getting these crappy calls. I’m going to know it’s meant something from above was told the [00:19:05] big Market team goes or even a game five the game six get to game seven if the little the little guy gets wins game seven fine, but get to game seven still much more money, but he pointed out losing those two games lost that franchise millions of dollars.

DJ:  If the fans will start thinking in terms of principles. They wouldn’t accept it. They shouldn’t accept it. I don’t accept it. No one should accept it, but it’s all about who hit the last home run and scored the last touchdown. That’s all that matters to them.  

Jerry: Yeah, but we get back to but [00:19:35] it also League though dictating their dollars. I think they’re using the fans as pawns and puppets

DJ: Absolutely

Jerry: The fans don’t even realize it and that’s a problems

DJ: That’s what I meant by not thinking principles if they did they’d realize it

Jerry: But if we go from the NBA now to the NHL and this is even a little bit more peculiar, I guess because the NHL they wrapped their games differently in the regular season to the playoffs in the first period of the third period it’s a completely different game. [00:20:05]

DJ: You can actually see the relativism in the NHL because then you’ll see hardly any calls, especially if it’s a game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals, you’ll see hardly any calls at all either way one team or the other because once again the refs don’t want to be a part of the narrative and its total total relativism. If there’s an infraction even as Eddie Olczyk used to call subtle interference. It’s still interference. [00:20:35] It’s still should be called. I don’t care if there’s a thousand infractions that are called and a constant going into the Penalty Box eventually, they’ll get the point that if they keep making these illegal plays they won’t they won’t be playing that much and they’ll stop.

Jerry: They can couple years ago. They really in the beginning of season, were calling everything that faded away throughout this as a season worn on and then when you got to the playoffs it is a completely different season.

DJ: There’s [00:21:05] a great article from the Buffalo Spree by Peter Martin from December of 2018 that was just a few months ago. And basically, he’s talking about how the penalties have changed since the lockout. Right away after lockout, everyone was praising how the game’s changed. They put the trapezoid rule in they were supposed to be calling the infractions more the hooking, the holding, the interference and all of a sudden scoring went up. Well, he acknowledges the NHL’s gotten away from calling those penalties on lazy defenders [00:21:35] and we are returning to the bad old days of hockey. In 2005-2006 the first after the lockout team’s average six point five goals per game in large part thanks to 12.7 minor penalties called each night. Those numbers have plummeted by 2016-17 NHL season average goals per game had fallen almost a whole integer, integer, sorry, averaging just 5.11 with just six point seven miners called it’s not like playing suddenly [00:22:05] got cleaner the penalties stopped happening and they just stopped being called. There’s a great article from its and they took all the games regular season games from 2005-2006 all the way up to 2017-2018 and they showed that basically at the end of the third period the referees would not make a call. They would stop making what would [00:22:35] be peacefully objective calls non-judgmental calls when

There was a delay of game into the stands, they would always be called. They’re obvious the ones the hooking, the holding, the interference, the ones that are called judgment calls, the refs stop calling. Now, that means it’s relative based to the time of the game.

Jerry: I’m going to go back 10 years ago, but 2008-2009. I spoke with an NHL referee in person [00:23:05] and I talked to this referee just about this and he came out and said they are not going to be the reason for a team to win in the end in a playoff game or an overtime.

DJ: Wait, hold on

Jerry: Anything short of a guy being decapitated will not be call it even decapitated,

DJ: but they are the reason because when someone gets away with doing something illegal and a play happens and it ends up scoring, they become the reason it happened and so that it’s foolish thinking [00:23:35] it’s absolutely foolish, it’s naïve.

Jerry:  Yet, he was confident. I mean his tone, he wasn’t he was sure he was almost like that’s how he was told to rough the game by his superiors.

DJ: I think is in the culture when we used to play adult no check hockey and I remember we were in a playoff game and I was being tugged right in front of the wrap from The Ref came to the bench. I complained to him, in colorful language and the ref turned to me and said, “I’m not calling that right now.” That’s the same [00:24:05] exact, it’s being relative based on what the time of the game or the time in the game looking in.

Jerry: Hooking the first two minutes is hooking in the last two whether it be overtime game seven, it does not matter

DJ: if your objective

Jerry: but the refs for some in the NHL they don’t want to be the ones that I can’t figure out. It’s the worst of all the League’s if it come from up top or was just within the referees from the head ref telling them you will not determine a game and there are is a ton of penalties that are given as makeup calls.

DJ: Once you can [00:24:35] see that are determined to not calling something. It’s breaks it down to a Rush song, “if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.” They are making a choice by not calling it. They’re still interfering with the game. It’s just not obvious.

Jerry: They are not looking at that way.

DJ:  Not objectively and subjectively

Jerry: They’re basically saying that we’re going to have our hands, putting the whistles in our pockets and we’re going to let you play the game that’s somewhat the Saints and Rams happen, put the [00:25:05] was in the pocket and they played the game. The rules are there are no rules

DJ: Remember, when I brought up that there were the police judge and jury,

Jerry: They’re not

DJ: what if they did what if the police judge and jury took on that exact same philosophy took on moral relativism and says, oh, well, I’m not going to I mean, you can’t even hear it in the border with the seperating of the families that we even though it’s illegal. We should we should think of the families, you know, and that that’s moral relativism because it’s based on whether their [00:25:35] parents are not not whether they broke the law. Okay, so we bring this over into sports

Jerry: It not whether they did the penalty or not

DJ: Exactly

Jerry: The refs judgment because they don’t want to be in the last two minutes of causing them to lose or win the game

DJ: Which is an emotional argument.

Jerry: I completely agree which that but that’s been hockey forever. I think that’s hockey’s problem mean that they’re one of the worst. They’re the least popular sport. I think that’s part of the problem people can see there’s a fans that these playoff games. It’s a different. It’s not the same game as regular season.

DJ:  Partly. [00:26:05] I also think part of the problem. It’s in the culture. It’s the Don Cherry mentality. It’s I have to hit I have to pull, I have to trip, it doesn’t matter. Whatever get me through that. That’s look what Don Cherry’s to say. He was proud of the fact that the Chicago Blackhawks all didn’t wear visors. He was so proud of that yet. It’s irrelevant to the game. Absolutely. It’s what is it? What does it foster? The tough man.

Jerry: It doesn’t matter but Cherry’s from that Gordie Howe kind of day when it [00:26:35] was brutal, you know the refs they didn’t call anything for that reason and yeah, Cherry love that kind of rough and that those are his boys, the Gilmore, but as the game has changed and the refs the calling of the games should evolve with that. I could see back in Don Cherry’s of these get these calls wouldn’t be

DJ:  this goes back to, I think, it was ‘72 when he’s the coach of the Bruins.

Jerry: Yeah.

DJ: No, this is this is recent. When he was just a sportscaster

Jerry: but that’s Don Cherry, seriously that’s in him that he’s never going to change.

DJ: Okay, [00:27:05] it starts from the top and it dwindles down and then someone ends up getting their neck broken in playing hockey because of that tough man mentality. I mean we go back to the referee. Look at what Todd Bertuzzi did. I think his name was Moore and he broke his neck on Ice.

Jerry: Yeah,

DJ: they allowed it to happen because they weren’t calling infractions has been calling what they should have been that have been stopped right immediately and he would not have lost his job and his livelihood.

Jerry: I think of the refs called them, but they should there wouldn’t be the need for enforcer in hockey. I [00:27:35] think the needs of the enforcer because rough don’t want to call so the teams have to self-police.

DJ: That gets into a different subject, but I don’t think there should be enforcers because hockey isn’t about fighting you want you want fighting go to boxing or MMA. That’s great. But that’s not what hockey is about, hockey’s about skating, shooting, passing and scoring

Jerry: Skill

DJ: Yes, skill

Jerry: I completely agree.

DJ: What does an enforcer have to do with that?

Jerry: but if a ref isn’t going to call that slashing then you got Marty McSorley going out there. You’re not going to touch Gretzky again, or I’m going to rip your head off and the team, they [00:28:05] follow. They don’t touch Gretzky. They had the ref call that you would need McSorley out there.

DJ: It’s the Batman mentality, vigilantism.

Jerry: That’s what it is.

DJ: You have to be a vigilante in order to have Justice and that is a problem with have refs. If the refs do their job you wouldn’t need Vigilantes

Jerry: That’s hockey to the core right now. It isn’t about the penalty being in the first two minutes will last two minutes. They don’t want to be the ones that called or had a part in calling that game and they’ll even go so far to where they’ll give a team if the if a Coach works over the [00:28:35] ref good enough, they’ll give them a makeup call just for a great (workover) which isn’t a penalty, they’re going to call. There’s the exact opposite because they want to make up that call because they the coach got in their ear and they’re kind of thinking back to maybe it was a ghost call. Here we go. Again, it’s some referees like that some referees don’t and they give in.

DJ: Even make up calls have the edge of moral relativism to them because it’s not based on objective…

Jerry: That’s my whole point.

DJ: It’s based on. Oh, I made a mistake or this team got a penalty we [00:29:05] have to give one to this team.

Jerry: In the overtime or the game seven. Someone literally tomahawks and breaks their stick. They’re not going to call it but in the first period when they want to make up a call in the guy just grazes that stick. It’s a slashing.

Jerry: It’s a completely…

DJ: It’s sad

Jerry: very sad.

DJ: And once again, this goes to my point that they buy them not calling it. They’re causing their creating a narrative.

Jerry: I kind of think that’s why they’re one of the least popular because the fans just get so frustrated that these calls [00:29:35] and look the Goon of the game. They’re doing their best to get the Goon out because it is not there anymore

DJ: and fighting

Jerry: correct. There’s only a couple, the capitals Wilson, but that he’s got skill to where he can fight and he can skate you don’t find many of those guys

DJ: Ryan Reeves from, I think he’s on the Golden Knights

Jerry: but they’re few and far between. They don’t want the enforcer in there. If they really don’t want the enforcer called and I think you’d have better fans, but I don’t think NHL is going to call and that’s what basically I think it stems the referee. [00:30:05] I don’t think the NHL mandates them or there’s picking teams to win as much as they’re saying the ref just put your whistles in your pockets. Whoever wins. Whoever comes up comes up

DJ: that’s going to bring them the Bob Probert back and the thugs.

Jerry: I think that’s what the NHL kind of

DJ: That’s what makes me not want to watch hockey anymore.

Jerry: I don’t watch hockey anymore because it’s frustrating. A penalty in the first two minutes should be the same in the last two minutes. It’s completely different game from the regular season and the frustrating part is when you get to the postseason, it’s a completely [00:30:35] different game.

DJ: Oh, absolutely.

Jerry: It’s not just the stress of the playoffs and all that. I get that. It’s the ref just basically I don’t know why they’re there. I get it back in the day when they had one ref. Now they have two and they still do not call it because it’s the playoffs. It doesn’t matter first period or not it just the penalties drop. I’m sure your graph points out in the playoffs that they just have no calls.

DJ: Especially at the end of the game and in overtime

Jerry: And those games are what 0-0, 1-1.

DJ: If you watch an overtime playoff game, there aren’t very many [00:31:05] calls unless it’s absolutely obvious like to delay of game when they shoot the puck in the stands they much have to call those because 20,000 people see it but and it’s also a not a judgment, the judgment calls, the holdings the high sticking’s, because they could say hi stick and I didn’t mean it. He didn’t and it’s a judgment and that’s the problem if they’re going to be the jury the judge and jury, they need to be objective and that’s going to make the game better if they’re objective

Jerry: If they can fix that it would make the game much better. We’ll have to see where [00:31:35] that goes. But I think all this officiating it comes back to how is it affecting the culture?

DJ: Well, I think, once again, it can tell it can tell all those who are watching that the end justifies the means.

Jerry: it’s okay to cheat. It’s okay.

DJ: Well, it’s okay to be morally relative that the thing your ethics changed based on the situation. That’s what relativism is. I mean slavery is always wrong even though it was legal at one time. If you’re a moral absolutist, you [00:32:05] believe it’s with it was even wrong when it was legal. Okay, that’s absolutely wrong. That’s how it should be in hockey. Every single infraction that is determined to be against the rules should be called 100% of the time

Jerry: it goes for all four.

DJ: It should be absolute.

Jerry: Absolutely, but when you get into the culture now, yeah, at least people to feel entitled because the calls are going their way and I’ll give you a classic example is New England Patriots that is on the most entitled fan bases now because of look [00:32:35] they…there are 31 teams that are not allowed to deflect the footballs, but there is one team that can do it and he is the greatest quarterback because he’s a great quarterback because he wears blue and red and white and gray he can deflate the balls.

DJ: I will give the fans a sort of pass because it’s been emotional, they’re rooting for their favorite team. They want they have emotion invested in it. That is not the job of the referees. I the refs are supposed to be objective [00:33:05] and that’s their job, to call every single infraction not to turn their heads. They used to do that in the old Soviet Union. If you paid me, if you greased me, I’ll turn my head and you can do anything illegal you want. That’s what basically game is.

Jerry:  And I bring up that for a reason because they have refs that our guarding those balls. There are so many balls for the home team and their imprinted Patriots, Steelers, whatever, so many for the visiting team and there are referees assigned those balls are guarded and that was happening long before so there’s our officiating crew [00:33:35] that let that slip. All right, and then literally there was even one I forget the team the player, I probably should remember, he threw the ball said, “That’s not our ball.” And the ref said, “You sure,” looked at the ball, said, “Yep, we have the wrong ball. Please bring their ball in.” They have to the they’re literally officiating which balls to have to use.

DJ: I have no problem with that. You should be able to use your own ball.  I have no problem with that. The problem is, if they’re if they’re caught deflating the balls, the rule should be enforced.

Jerry: That’s why I bring it up because you had officials that were just letting that go until [00:34:06] I don’t know how they it was brought out how it was it leaked out but that was a long time because it was let go some fans said, “It’s okay.” Now there are other teams that can’t do that. So, I think it’s carried often to our culture to where we’re entitled to where we can do what we want to win the game and it gets back to our first episode of pragmatism whatever it takes.

DJ: That entitlement from the fans wouldn’t work, if the Refs just did their job. If they officiated objectively and with an absolute moral [00:34:36] compass, right or wrong if it’s wrong it’s called. Period.

Jerry: I grew up very naive, thinking the refs were doing their jobs. I thought there was no way I mean the refs were there, that’s why they were on their Stripes They’re the person to say it’s a foul, it’s a penalty. I’m over the last couple years after reading this article, I’ve come to the conclusion that I think they’re doing their jobs, but they’re being told how to ref these games and that’s the problem.

DJ: It is, I just wish the refs would learn to be [00:35:06] objective to learn the difference between moral relativism and absolute moral clarity.

Jerry: Yeah, but when you got the owners of these leagues who are making billions, more clarity, it all that just goes out the window because it goes back down to where they want to make this money and at end of the day the NFL is worth billions of dollars. They want to go Global they want nothing to happen to this and it’s sad to say that they would say I don’t want Jacksonville in the Super Bowl because it’ll kill our world…marketing [00:35:36] people won’t watch the game anymore. We’ll watch the Super Bowl. When in fact they’re watching for the commercials now.

DJ: it’s a difference between a true capitalist and a crony capitalist and the crony capitalists are winning.

Jerry: And that’s what it is, the crony capitalists, until they get I don’t want to say it’s all about the money because you got to make money that that’s what it’s a business but there’s a right way and a wrong way and right now it’s the wrong way from the commissioner of these leagues, Roger Goodell, Adam Silver, Rob Manfred and he’s even talking about [00:36:06] now changing rules to where each pitcher must, this is a brand-new today, he brought this up, they must face three batters no more bringing in just the facing one. You got to face a minimum of three batters. So, they’re literally dictating the game by he’s doing it through rules.

DJ: See, I don’t mind that. If they bring up the rule and it’s enforced at the beginning of the season and everyone has to follow it, I don’t mind that at all, but it needs to be enforced. It’s when you let one go…

Jerry: Do they follow it?

DJ: Exactly yeah. I don’t mind the making [00:36:36] rules and try and improve the game. I truly don’t. The rules in football or totally different now than what they were 50, even 70 years ago, totally different. It’s a different game. But whenever the rules are there are established. They should be enforced.

Jerry: And the refs have to be objective and it is hard to no matter what. No matter what call you make, you’re the bad guy you’re going to people saying you’re right and wrong but as a ref that got to be objective.

DJ: Mistakes are one thing, I get human mistakes and I’ll give them that. But when you constantly put your whistle in your [00:37:06] pocket at a certain time part of the game or a certain part of the year or the season, that’s not a mistake that’s done with conscious intent.

Jerry: Yeah, and that’s what’s making these leagues. I think it’s going to it’s going to hurt him in their viewership. It will go down the NFL will not be the NFL in 10 years. And I think these calls are going to lead to people walking away.

DJ: I think that’s part of it. It’s part of it and I think it started with the Colin Kaepernick protest that started the people walking away. It’s a different issue, but it’s all these things together are going to hurt the NFL.

Jerry: it won’t be the same league in 10 years.

DJ: Absolutely. I totally agree. I [00:37:36] totally agree. There’s one last thing. I like to bring up. It’s not related to the refereeing. It was brought up by Major League Baseball this very weekend. They’re going to change calling the disabled list to the injured list. Coming from a person who is disabled, I am highly offended by it. It’s another form of political correctness rearing its ugly head. I’d rather be philosophically correct than politically correct. And [00:38:06] in order to be politically correct, you elevate politics to the top level of the metaphysical level and metaphysics is first, politics is the fourth branch in a proper philosophical system. I would much rather be philosophically correct then politically correct and that’s why I think it’s an absurd notion to change it from disabled to injury. I didn’t even think of it. I’m disabled. I didn’t even think of it until they brought it up.

Jerry: I don’t think of it either but [00:38:36] that’s where the culture is taking us. Just today I seen on Yahoo! where Barbie, now, they have disabled dolls. Okay, I think it’s that the Manford wants to just want to upset his sponsors and the sponsors have come out and said, you know change this or we’re going to go away. So now he’s caving into that. It’s about the money again. So now we’re going to change it because our sponsors are certain people don’t want to hear disabled.

DJ: The Barbie thing doesn’t bother me as much I think I don’t [00:39:06] mind disabled kids being represented. That doesn’t bother me. It’s when you blatantly kowtow to political correctness, and that’s what this change is.

Jerry: That’s exactly what it is

DJ: That’s what this change is. It’s not about Justice. It’s not about being right. It’s about being politically correct and like I said, and this is how I’ll end it, I would much rather be philosophically correct than politically correct. You can get in touch with us at on Twitter at @granddesignspod and on Instagram @granddesignspodcast
. [00:39:36] This is The Grand Design podcast. Who are you listening to?

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