Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 6 – The Seismic Impact of Paying College Athletes to Play Sports Transcript

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This is Grand Design podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand where we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

[00:00:33] DJ: Welcome back to The Grand Design podcast. I’m DJ Grand and once again my partner in crime is Jerry.

Jerry: Hello

DJ: Before we start, I’d like to tell you what how you can get ahold of us. Our email address is You can also go to our website at and click the what are you thinking link and give us your feedback on there. On Instagram, [00:01:03] it’s as to Granddesignspodcast and on Twitter it’s granddesignspod. Today, we’re going to be talking about college athletes and should they be paid? To start off, I think there is an epistemological problem with the NCAA, by that what I mean is they don’t really narrow down or hold down their concept of what it means to be an amateur because for them it’s whatever it wants to be whatever gets them by a sort of pragmatic [00:01:33] in that way and an amateur when you look it up in the dictionary, especially in the context of sports, is someone who is not being paid. So, the question is should a college athlete be paid?

Jerry: I’m Midway. I’m kind of like I’m the fence on this because in a way I would say no because they get their four-year scholarship. Well not four years, but they do get a scholarship they get it paid. There’re other things will get into that they do get benefits from, but in terms of student athlete, when it all started we’re going back to 1955 [00:02:03] Walter Byers the NCAA’s first executive director. He created the term student athlete actually in the 50s and it was to help fight the NCAA fight against Workman’s compensation Insurance. Really claims for injured football players and that came to help them in ’55, when a Colorado player had passed away from the Fort Lewis A&M Aggies. His wife filed a workmen’s compensation death benefits and the Colorado Supreme Court agreed with the NCAA that she was not eligible for it because [00:02:33] college was not in the football business. Now we come on now to 2019 there in the football business now, but yet this is the term that they still use today as student athlete.

DJ: Well, there’s the problem again. They’re not they don’t define exactly what it means to be a student athlete just like what it means to be an amateur. It can be anything they want whatever will fit there…

Jerry: whatever they benefit

DJ: yeah, well if it’s their benefit

Jerry: at one time if you were just paid you could not participate within the college sports. There’s [00:03:03] a swimmer. I can’t remember his name. He was from a different country and that country paid him almost three-quarters of a million dollars and the NCAA overlooked that and said that was okay. But technically he is a paid athlete now and he went on to win actually beat Michael Phelps, it was Michael Phelps was just coming down, he already broke the record for his whatever 8 – 12 gold medals he had, so I forget the country but the point being is Rick Emmett, who is the think [00:03:33] the director now the NCAA said he waived it said it was okay. It was different because tennis players they do get to make $10,000. There are certain pockets and rules in different sports, football players, they get $550 gift bags when they go to a bowl game. So, there are little things that they get that the NCAA saying that it’s okay. If they get this compensation, they’re not paid athletes.

DJ: Once again, it’s they are not defining what it means because in one instance that this means a paid athlete [00:04:03] at different instance. It’s a whole different definition. They’re not narrowing it down. It’s actually a floating abstraction and a floating abstraction means there’s no connection to a concrete. The concrete actually exists and abstraction does not exist. What they’re doing is allowing it to float so that can mean anything they want they can place it any way they want so however, it means to them. So, it’s whatever will get them through?

Jerry: Well, it obviously times have changed because back in the 50s this worked well with them the players of the athletes that went and played for [00:04:33] their college, it was more of a loyalty dedication. It was a more of an honor to it wasn’t about even the think about pro sports. Now, it’s become a big business and in the 50s there really wasn’t a TV contract. So, there wasn’t revenue coming in now, it’s huge, huge business. The University of Texas brought in 92 million alone last year. That was off Big Ten, no, Big 12 Network or the Texas Longhorn Network. They’re the only University that has their own network. The Big Ten Conference has their Network.

DJ: [00:05:03] the SEC has their own network

Jerry: Correct, but those revenues now go to oh, we’re growing up, when we were little Michigan always dominate was always Michigan-Ohio State because Indiana didn’t really get a lot of money. There was a lot of TV contracts. Well, no one still watches Indiana but they’re still going to get a guaranteed nine ten million, whatever equally split up from the revenue from the Big Ten Conference. So now it’s become a big business and

DJ: with that also with that though also comes a lot of debt because you’re talking one that is in the black, [00:05:33] but I can name you 20 that are in the red because they’ll buy a big billboard the by big TV and it puts them in debt

Jerry: I remember that now I’m going back to like the 90s now, when Eastern Michigan, I forget the library was just built, a brand new the Halle Library, maybe

DJ: yes,

Jerry: and I remember I just I just got a job working there and I asked my boss will the library look brand-new how old was it,  he said was one year old and he looked at me so, you know where it came from the football team going to Michigan and getting their brains [00:06:03] beat out for a 3.4 million dollar piece of pie just to go visit.

DJ: Now if you paid the athletes there goes that library because the money would go to the athletes instead of to the library,

Jerry: but all these games now like for example Eastern Michigan went down and played at Auburn that was big money for them. So now it’s basically the institutions are sending out the athletes to play in these big-ticket games, Texas Michigan’s just for that pay out knowing full well, they’re going to get just destroyed on the field. It’s take one for the Gipper [00:06:33] for the home team. Now when you get the athletes now are they entitled to any of that money that they’re bringing in?

DJ: not that particular money because as you want to get into names and images unlike this as I would say, it’s them (the players). They deserve that they earned that because it’s them but the university owns a property, the university owns the uniform, the university owns the field, they that is property rights. They should get the money now,

Jerry: but [00:07:03] I kind of agree with Chris Webber in this in the aspect of you’re walking down the street and you see a jersey with your name on the back. Yeah, it’s a Michigan on the front, but your name is on the back and the school selling these bringing in just a lot of money and you’re not seeing a penny.

DJ: Well, that’s what goes to the images because that is a sort of an image or likeness of, Chris Webber. So, I would agree with you on that. They deserve to get paid on that

Jerry: I’m not going to agree with you on that it’s the same thing because the image, Ed O’Bannon he turned that around when he won from the video game because it was her likeness. This is not Weber’s [00:07:33] likeness. This is his jersey.

DJ: It’s his name, It’s not his jersey. See there’s a little…it’s the University of Michigan’s Jersey. It’s his name on their Jersey. Now, because it’s his name, that’s why I say its sort of like,

Jerry: I can’t remember

DJ: resembles a likeness

Jerry: Outside the Fab five, I can’t remember the other players though. Nobody bought those players jerseys that year it was Weber, Rose, Jackson, King those the ones they bought mostly Webber. So, it goes down to if it’s your [00:08:03] name and you’re saying your name being sold you have no rights to any percentage of that.

DJ: I would say they do but that’s sort of like I would say, a sponsorship for the Olympics. An Olympian can get a sponsor but yet still take amateur status and  

Jerry: I think that’s kind of what I’m kind of going with this where one swimmer can go and win the gold medal and the long time ago, you could not get, if you were in college sports, you cannot take that money because once you did you were disqualified from the NCAA. So, that one person because [00:08:33] he’s not a from the country who’s just going to school here. He can compete even though he gets almost a million dollars, but they’re not going to let the kids or the players get any for the jerseys now the (video) games they’re wiped out there done EA sports is done away with it and that was a good game, too. Why they didn’t just not use the likenesses but they just stopped doing it. So, the kids were going to get their money

DJ: they were afraid of being sued,

Jerry:  Well, they got sued and lost,

DJ: That’s why they stopped it.

Jerry: but the with Weber’s name or if it was was my name on the back, sure, you have [00:09:03] to negotiate this and get a contract and that may be difficult for a kid to do. Maybe that’s the issue, too. The other issue is if he does get the money from this t-shirt is you now disqualified because he’s

Being paid.

DJ: Well, if you did it like the Olympic model, then no, it be like a sponsorship. My problem isn’t really there, my problem is the kind of our they’re not being paid to play but they are being compensated. They are getting an education, not always four years, but they are getting that paid for they’re getting [00:09:33] their books paid for their getting room and board paid for. Nowadays, they’re also getting a nutrition plan or meals paid for all of this is compensation. I wouldn’t call it direct payment like cash, but they are being paid in that context. So, if you took away that you started to make them pay in the players now, they would now have to pay for their own tuition.

Jerry: But are they getting nutrition programs? Because I’ve heard several players even as far back as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar complaining how he had to go to bed hungry. He [00:10:03] could even get the money together for a burger because again, he could…was not allowed to have money. This goes even recently as 2014 when Shabazz, I think Napier of the Portland TrailBlazers came out and said how he was basically poor in college. So, where’s the nutrition program?

DJ:  and you’re talking about an old man, too. Talk about today? Are you tell me…

Jerry: we’re talking about…

DJ: wait a minute. We’re talking about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar do not play in 2014

Jerry: nut I’m sure that was eerily the same of Napier who was 2014 of what he went through. So [00:10:33] there’s over 50 years the scenery what he’s trying to say, it hasn’t changed. He was starving the kids are starving today still.

DJ: So, you’re telling me that these top-notch programs don’t feed their kids. Don’t make sure they’re on a proper nutrition?

Jerry: that’s a good question.

DJ: I think they do otherwise they wouldn’t be able to perform the high level that they do, while at least during the season. I’m sure that…

Jerry: I’d like to think that but I’m going to I don’t really want to believe that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and this Shabazz are not going to lie.

DJ: There’s a contradiction there. If they’re starving how do they perform at a [00:11:03] high level, their blood sugar would be off, they would be passing out on the court. They are…they are at least eating or they would be able to perform at that high level

Jerry: So, you’re just saying they are bringing this up just to draw attention that need, they want to get compensated in the day.

DJ: I say it questionable.

Jerry: it’s going it’s going to that direction.

DJ: I don’t want to say they’re lying. I’m sure there are times when you did go hungry, but every college person, not just sport athletes, goes hungry. That’s part of being in college and being on your own. I mean, there’s nothing new in there. Nothing unique about going hungry during your college [00:11:33] days. I just think that they are getting a nutritional plan because how can they compete at such a high level, especially in today’s game, if they weren’t?

Jerry: I’d like to agree with you there.

DJ: Now, beyond like to agree with you there beyond the nutritional plan. They’re also getting world-class weight rooms to work out in, which helps benefit their game, which helps get them exposure, which helps get them into the n-well, NFL, NBA, depending on what we are talking about.

Jerry: They’re getting free auditions, too. Their auditioning every day from the scout…every game, not every day,

DJ: So, they [00:12:03] are being compensated.

Jerry: Well when you get into the university is not how much money they bring in the bowl games. Now, it was turned into their naming the Bowls and the Sponsorship and it’s become millions if not billions of dollars to the university and they’re really throwing these kids out is like equipment for the entertainment purpose like the WWE almost. Let’s go out there for the fans to watch it all the money they’re bringing in. So, at what point do you I mean,

DJ: Are you telling me the NFL doesn’t treat their players, who are paid, like equipment? They are the [00:12:33] equipment. The true players are the coaches and the owners and the GM’s

Jerry: You’re right, when they signed that contract. Okay, whatever.

DJ: so, it’s the same thing, giving them money is…

Jerry: Well, the college kids aren’t getting paid.

DJ: But giving them money, paying them is not going to change that. They’re still going to be the equipment cause that’s what they are in the pros. They’re the equipment.

Jerry: I completely agree. But when a college player goes out there. I’m kind of trying to put myself in their shoes. If I was able to play college was fortunate enough and I was that gifted to play at their level, you know, they’re out there watching me [00:13:03] and what I can do and this NCAA and the university is bringing in just a lot of money and we’re not just talking a little bit. Billions of dollars over the now we’re talking football and we have we have to go to the three, well, football, basketball and hockey are the ones that generate the most revenue. The problem when it gets into is are you going to pay the rowing team?

DJ: You’re going to have to.

Jerry: the same, the golf team and that’s where the problem comes in because when you split it up, I think after you split [00:13:33] it up because now it’s come with me if I’m wrong, correct me, but don’t they have to pay taxes now if they would be paid?

DJ: if they had to be paid. Yes, then you become employee status which you brought up workmen’s comp and that’s only works if their employees

Jerry: and they wouldn’t have the scholarship anymore? So they have to pay for their education.

DJ: That’s what I brought up earlier. Yes, that that isn’t it opens up a huge can of worms because they will have to pay everything by themselves. They wouldn’t get the scholarship anymore or do I guess it could negotiate that, but they shouldn’t get it anymore because [00:14:03] they’re being paid. Now, they are going to be employees. They have to pay their own taxes and all benefits they get now, that they to get to write off, they would lose because they would they would go beyond the IRS limits to be able to write it off.

Jerry: There was an article that brought let’s put it out that the football players would earn about a hundred and thirty Grand, this is only division one. Basketball $289,000 because that’s how much money the March Madness Tournament brings in but they’re only figuring in the basketball players, they are not thinking about the golf players or the Row [00:14:33] team or the wrestling team.

DJ: Well, they also aren’t thinking about their expenses. They also, every college has expenses that they’re not talking about they have to build the

Jerry: travel expenses get them to and from the games. They have hotel, lodging.

DJ: They have to build a stadium, a world-class Stadium. There are expenses. The coach’s salary that has to be paid.

Jerry: Since you brought that up, the coaches. Look how much they’re being compensated. I mean, there’s getting millions.

DJ: Coaches are professionals.

Jerry: see but Nick Saban here and Jim Harbaugh making seven million dollars a year and they’re bringing these [00:15:03] kids, now, again, here we are the kids are not there are going out there and making Harbaugh look good. Harbaugh is getting paid and the only thing they’re getting maybe, maybe a scholarship. They may have to some of our Walk-Ons.

DJ: Wait a minute. I think you’re looking at it…from my point of view, Harbaugh is making them look good because he’s teaching him how to play football and to get them into the NFL.

Jerry: Didn’t they already know they had the skill? Harbaugh, if he doesn’t like you, if he ever recruited you and you’ve got the skill, he’s going to offer you a scholarship and they’re going to seventh grade with recruiting [00:15:33] so, if they’re not good enough Harbaugh is not going to even ask you.

DJ: Yeah, but she still teaches them from that point on. He makes them better from that point on.

Jerry: Well, here we go

DJ: He is giving him something. I think you’re looking at it the wrong way.

Jerry: Well, here’s the game where he has an advantage, when Saban to that I’ve been in the NFL I will teach you. My program is just like the NFL. You come here, all right, but not every kid not only how many kids go what went on at 25 go pro. It’s a small number not every kid is going to go pro. So, the ones that the [00:16:03] Walk-Ons they’re paying for their own scholarship. Now, they’re the one some of them walk out there trying to be big-time stars

DJ: Until they get a scholarship and they’re not paying anymore. So, yeah, they may be walk-ons when they first start, but once they get that scholarship…

Jerry: Before they get that scholarship though, you don’t think they should be compensated? That would, that shouldn’t be a job for them. This is a question. I pose, because they’re paying for their college our own tuition. It isn’t that they don’t have it. They weren’t offered a scholarship. They walked on for whatever reason

DJ: but that ends once they make the team. They get the scholarship. [00:16:33] once they make the team.

Jerry: No, not every time, so, most players in midseason for medical reasons one player falls off leaves a team. They then give that scholarship is somebody else. There’s been celebrations and them to being creative where midseason now, they can give this kid whose work two years like a Tru Wilson was one for Michigan team where the first two years, he didn’t know he was fortunate, his Dad paid, but he was on his own. The junior year he was given a scholarship. So, the first two years he was doing it on his own

DJ: As far as [00:17:03] medical goes, I know the Big Ten, they require that they if they get hurt. They have to pay at least two years of their scholarship and there are some universities that will pay the full four years, if they are legitimately hurt. So, it’s not always the case that they’re being kicked out. They are still being taken care of as far as their tuition goes.

Jerry: That’s good. That’s the first I’ve heard of that but that’s good that they’re doing that because a long time ago that wasn’t the case. The person, the player was just thrown aside. You’re not good with any more, worse than the equipment. But when you compare the coach’s salary to what [00:17:33] the kids and what’s bringing in you don’t see a disparity there because that’s really the number one issue right now with paying in the college players. You got basketball programs, Izzo, Krzyzewski making just millions, Harbaugh, Saban and these kids again universities bringing in billions of dollars were given the coach millions and the players nothing.

DJ: They’re also putting out millions or billions of dollars. Beyond that, it opens a huge can of worms because you pay the employees [00:18:03] or you make them employees and pay the student athletes that money hss got to come from somewhere and like I said about the library that will be built anymore. You’re going to see programs like, look at what happens at a high school, when all of a sudden, a budget crisis happens. What’s the first thing to go? It’s not the football program. It’s the art. It’s the music. It’s…

 Jerry: There are going to be repercussions from this and that repercussions are going to be

DJ: That’s what I’m talking about.

Jerry:  There won’t be a girls’ softball team. There won’t be a bowling team.

DJ: So that’s…

Jerry: It’s all going to be the generating sport so they can because [00:18:33] the universities are still going to have their profit margins and they’re still going to want to make their millions of dollars. Nothing’s going to change that.

DJ: That’s why this opens a can of worms and beyond it opening a can of worms, from the student itself. And as far as what they’re making, had a great article about what actually goes into the scholarship. A “full athletic scholarship (a grant-in-aid) and an NCAA division 1 University is about $65,000. [00:19:04] If you enroll at a college with high tuition, this includes such private colleges as Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, USC, Syracuse and Vanderbilt. The scholarship is $45,000 for tuition, $20,000 for room and board and books at state universities discussion would be lower if you were in an in-state student because tuition would then be reduced to $13,000. But if Michigan coach Jim Harbaugh recruits nationwide and wants a high school player from California or Texas [00:19:34] the University of Michigan out state tuition bumps up to about the same as that charged for private colleges. A coach could offer a recruit a salary instead of a collar ship, a scholarship, excuse me, does a $100,000 salary give the student athlete a better deal than the sixty-five-thousand-dollar scholarship. The $100,000 salary is impressive a future Heisman Trophy winner might command more but $100,000 is not bad for an 18-year-old out of high school. But [00:20:04] since it’s salary and not a scholarship, it’s subject to federal and state income taxes. Tuition and college expenses would not be deductible because

Income level surpasses the IRS eligibility limit. So, a student athlete paid a salary would owe twenty-three thousand eight hundred dollars in federal income taxes and six thousand seven hundred dollars in state taxes, a total of $3,500. In cities that levy an employee payroll tax, the salaried students [00:20:34] tax goes up to 2400 dollars per year. Income taxes, then are totaled at thirty-two thousand nine hundred dollars. As an employee, the player would have to pay at least $2,000 more in taxes such, as social security, for a grand total of thirty-four thousand nine hundred dollars. This leaves the college player with $65,100. Since College bills come to 65,000. The player is left with $100.” So, what are they being paid? They’re not.

Jerry:  In [00:21:04] that aspect of getting paid $100.

DJ: Yeah, so

Jerry: even though it’s been masked as a whatever hundred and thirty-thousand-dollar salary.

DJ: So, actually that becomes worse for the college because the college is not playing $65,000 anymore. They’re paying a hundred thousand. So now the college has to pay more for the same exact product, the same outcome

Jerry: Now, that is a great point. I think that I don’t think people are thinking about that but what they’re using right now is some numbers that I’m going to read to you. They’re just astounding. This [00:21:34] was the Knight commission and they look up revenues, salaries what conferences are bringing in for the five major conferences. This is football alone. The SEC, Big Ten, ACC, Big Twelve and Pac-12 their profits increased by two hundred sixty six percent from 2005 to 2015. Now, in 2015, the 53 public schools from the five major conferences pay their football coaching staff, which is 530 individuals, 405 million dollars the compared to the hundred seventy-nine point eight million in scholarships [00:22:04] to the football players. So, these numbers here, look it looks like they’re given a lot of the money that our coaches and really when the scholarships not a lot of money. That money there though would probably increase and you’d see basically other sports. I kind of see whether they’re not seeing the effect of their cause

DJ: Dot at all. I think it’s going to open up a huge can of worms.

Jerry: Well, they’re using these numbers because they are bringing in 405 million dollars and that’s pretty much the five networks involved or conferences, that’s just for football. That’s a lot [00:22:34] of money that they’re bringing in.

DJ: There’s also another part of the can of worms. You’re going to also have to welcome in unions because now they’re going to want to be represented and worse than that, they are going to start holding out and they won’t hold out as a freshman or sophomore but their junior year all of a sudden they are going to say, “I want to get paid more,” and they’re going to hold out and that’s going to ruin college football, basketball, too.

Jerry: because it’s going to the snowball. It was in the direction that it’s going it’s going to get out of control. I think to the point to [00:23:04] where you had that there but all the other sports are going to go away is going to be more of an academic institution and it won’t be the student-athletes anymore. Unless it’s football, basketball, hockey and maybe baseball. Baseball doesn’t bring in a lot of revenue for the NCAA.

DJ: Well, there’s one other point I’d like to bring up. What incentive does the paid athlete have to go to school? He’s a going to think, “I’m getting paid. I don’t need this. I don’t need this. I don’t need this education anymore. This is going to take me into the NFL. Well, I don’t need to go to school if I don’t need [00:23:34] to study anymore.’

Jerry: it’s rare…

DJ: and that’s the point they’re going to University for. That it’s for the education.

Jerry: That is happening right now. Basketball, mostly.

DJ: This is going to exacerbate the problems can make it worse.  So, obviously if it’s happening now…

Jerry: NFL has a rule that you can’t you have to go two years at least a sophomore before you can enter the NFL draft. So, the kids can’t do that. Basketball however, though they’re one and dones. I mean they’re just playing one year. Now, Ben Simmons is a good example who played three years ago for LSU. He was a freshman and just went there just for [00:24:04] the exposure. It was from the get-go. It was just a one year. He was going there. The classes he took were from basket weaving to home economics to cooking. These classes were just a joke and it was just for that. So, you get scholarship. He had the grade point average to meet it. And then he was on to the NBA and yeah, he was a third overall pick. I think the third one overall pick or a number one pick, nevertheless, making millions of dollars now, so that was just a one-year thing that was all planned. Everyone knew that Ben Simmons was going to be a one and done some basketball more than others. Football [00:24:34] you can’t do that.

DJ: It doesn’t matter. What do you think is going to happen when they’re getting paid? I’m serious answer that question because they’re not going to want it to take their academic career seriously anymore because it won’t matter them as much

Jerry: It doesn’t matter now.

DJ: Well it will it will matter even less once they get paid because they’re going to say I’m already getting paid. I’ll get paid even more in the NFL or baseball or NBA. I don’t need to take this seriously.

Jerry: If they get an agent the agent represents them. You [00:25:04] can’t play all these players equally because you’re going to have one person saying I’m worth more. I need, well, I require more. There’s where the agents come in to negotiate that contract.

DJ: That still doesn’t answer the point that they’re not going to take academic seriously once if you paid I’m not saying everyone, but…

Jerry: Your right, but they don’t now that they don’t

DJ: and paying the money is going to pour fuel on the fire. It’s going to make it worse

Jerry:  how many times? We’ll have to do this next up when the football season starts when they introduce themselves and they’re shown their Majors how many times [00:25:34] did General Studies or just as most of the lame whatever course of they’re in. Now there are few that were business and economics and architecture fine. But most of these guys it’s just general not even liberal arts anymore. General Studies because they know that it’s already happening. They’re there. They’re not there for the education. If anything, they may go back afterwards, but that’s not the case. They’re just going there to get the notoriety and they know darn well, in the football case, after two years, they’re out the door. [00:26:04]

DJ: Well, that’s a problem with the pragmatism in the university. The end justifies the means, so I can just put them in these BS classes just to get them to say they’re students when they’re not. That’s a problem with the university

Jerry: and they also will pass there because they got to have a certain GPA to be on the team. What will it be a 1.5 or 2.0, whatever it is, and these easier classes. They can pass those

DJ: Pragmatism again. It doesn’t solve the problem. It makes it worse. You’re just saying that you’re just saying that the principles don’t matter of getting an education. That’s [00:26:34] the point of going to college is to get an education primarily. It’s also extracurricular, so you can play football, baseball what have you but the point is an education and that and that is being totally overlooked and it’s going to be thrown away and going to be an in the backseat

Jerry: correct

DJ:…not going to matter. It’s going to be am I getting paid?

Jerry: back in the 50s. It was education 60s and 70s. I don’t know if the 80s it stopped but it was about the education you’re going to get it free education as long as you performed and you met [00:27:04] the requirements and then you’re off on your own in your own whatever you’re going to do if it wasn’t an adult professional sports, so it was about the education back in the 50s, but it wasn’t the TV money either. The TV money has just completely changed scenario, reversal from night and day to where now the there are some people who are advocating that the and I don’t believe this but the players are almost equivalent it to slave labor. They’re not getting paid.

DJ: I would not, that’s, that’s…

Jerry: You’ve already brought up the all the stuff that they do get paid. [00:27:34] They’re going to go it’s right. It’s not relevant to the amount of money the universities are bringing in but again until you just brought up what happens if they were employees? There’s other thing where there’s an interesting stat that out of the 40 and 50 states and in 42 States the top three the employees of paid State employees are college football coaches. They’re making more money than Governor’s, the politicians.

DJ: That’s the free market. I have no problem that. Hold on your slave labor comment. It’s not even close.

Jerry: that’s not my comment, it that’s what’s being brought [00:28:04] up to

DJ: them bringing it up

Jerry: all these players not getting paid.

DJ: because if it’s slave it’s done it’s done by force and these kids are not forced to go to school there in any way whatsoever. They want to go there so it’s not slave labor and

Jerry: I agree

DJ: you may have an argument that it’s a form of Labor. I don’t think so

Jerry: They aren’t getting paid, they’re getting compensated.

DJ: It’s not it’s not slave labor. Okay, I can actually pinpoint the problem when this all started our little subtopic to our name, our tagline is linking the chains of reason [00:28:34] to sports, politics and culture. Well, this is all three because the Sports of it is happened in the Olympics, and the Olympics change the culture and was done by politics and the politics was the Communist. The Eastern Bloc communist countries were actually making their Olympians professionals and that was considered not fair in the Free World and from then on in it also making now we can pay our Olympians [00:29:04] and that then jump from Olympics to college sports

Jerry: but 1980 kind of threw it out the window when

DJ: It’s an anomaly

Jerry: those kids.

DJ: You’re right, but that’s an anomaly for the most part. I mean

Jerry: The Russians were smoking us before the Olympics

DJ: That very same year they played the Miracle on Ice game, they lost 10 to 1 to that very same team. The Americas lost to the Russians. They were professionals

Jerry: those players were there in the Army, disguised as being in the Army

DJ: Not just those, remember of the old East [00:29:35] German women’s weightlifting. You tell me they weren’t professionals. But yeah, and they weren’t cheating on steroids or the drugs they had back then the point is that’s where it started and it snowballed to where it went from Olympics to now college sports and there is a problem. Now, the only way I can say solving it is doing what they did what they’re doing now for the Olympics you can now actually get a sponsorship, you can get endorsements and still be considered an [00:30:05] amateur and play our or compete in the Olympics if they did the same thing in the NCAA whether it’s baseball, football or hockey. Let the let them go and get their endorsements that way they’re going to get paid they’re going to get some kind of extra money especially the real good ones and they can still compete as amateurs. It’s like the Olympic model

Jerry: but this is eerily like the Super Bowl we talked about this in a previous podcast. How it has changed the culture. Super Bowl back in the day was nothing. Now, it’s all about commercials how much money they’re paying for [00:30:35] the commercials players were making that much back in the 50s of players had to have a job in the offseason. Well now in the college the same thing these bowl games are big money. But again, they’re using the kids as being used to make this big money, but that TV money wasn’t, it wasn’t back there in the day. So, it’s totally changed like the whole scenery of college sports and the money it’s now there’s more of a business that it was back in the 50s. It wasn’t they weren’t in the Michigan wasn’t in the make money back in the 50s for football. It was it was a sport. It [00:31:05] was bring out, you know, whatever. It’s like high school. You can feel that Stadium up in this all the tickets. Then you got a little bit of Revenue that’s completely changed now

DJ: When you bring up, Michigan not trying to make money. Well, that’s the another of the epistemological problems.

Jerry: In the ‘50s

DJ: That’s another one of the epistemological problems I have the NCAA because they’re supposed to be nonprofit. They want to hold onto their nonprofit status and that’s what saves them from antitrust lawsuits. Although they are being sued now in antitrust courts. The point is they’re no longer nonprofit. They don’t want they don’t want [00:31:35] tie themselves down them

Jerry: They’re hiding under that title of nonprofits.

DJ: They don’t want to tie themselves down to any straight, concrete definition like talked earlier about floating abstractions. That’s the same thing with their nonprofit status. They’re not truly nonprofit. And that is the problem that they are pretending to be nonprofit, but they’re actually profit.

Jerry: I completely agree with her the money that they’re making a loan at the universities the NCAA. It’s just making a killing the other a good example of the bowl games and the NCAA tournament, which is coming up around the corner. They’re [00:32:05] making billions mean we said the number one call in sick day was the Super Bowl the day after your number two is?

DJ: what?

Jerry: the Thursday and Friday of the first NCAA March Madness because there’s like 18 games from 12 noon to 12 midnight Thursday, Friday Saturday Sunday and you got him employers who are trying to combat this whole the them being off. So, it’s changed the culture. Now you got gambling this coming up in games. You’ve got more money flowing into it. This is what this is only going to get worse and I completely agree. I don’t think they’re [00:32:35] cause is seeing the effect down the road and it’s going to really change the landscape for the lower Sports. You’re always going to have football. That’s not going anywhere. You’re going to have a basketball. Baseball, I don’t know. I think that’s going to go away and hockey was surprisingly to me the third generating revenue of all the four sports that have think girls’ softball made more money than the boy’s baseball. So, the boys baseball NCAA is not your even hear of it this far as the making the money. It’s the other two basketball and football are really bringing in the revenue.

DJ: So, what [00:33:05] do you see as the real casualties that if we start paying the college athletes or not?

Jerry: They’ll be no more of the when I say lower level sports, the wrestling. Eastern Michigan already lost a wrestling program and that’s going to really spawn out to wear a girls’ basketball that’s going to go away. Although that’s coming up in popularity. So, they may stick with if they pay the girls its see, again. It depends about this paying and what the ones they can’t pay which is the rowing team. Yeah. That’s what’s going away.

DJ: But wait if they pay the girls, Title IX, that’s going to make them

Jerry: well, Title IX [00:33:35] has to be changed

DJ: anything you do to the male’s you have to do the females with Title IX. So, they’re going to have to be paid.

Jerry: and that’s going to have to be changed the Title IX. It won’t look you’re not going to do it because the boys basketball program brings in 3 times what the girls does. You’re not going to

DJ: that’s irrelevant now that’s not going to change at least in the face of the law.

Jerry:  Yeah. It’s going to want the Equal Pay but that’s not going to happen because they’re not bringing equal money

DJ: as long as it’s the law. It’s going to have to happen.

Jerry: What I’m telling you is going to have to change that if they’re going to pay players Title [00:34:05] IX goes away. It’s going to have be altered or changed to where that’s not going to be the case because universities will not…

DJ: I think that’s a fantasy world. I think Title IX will stick around and you’re going to have to pay the females,  not as much as, but you’re going to pay them and what’s going to happen in the real casualty will be on the lower Sports and academics.

Jerry: The academics are going to get hurt. Yes, but then the females they’re going to cancel that program now basketball…

DJ: There was just a case where it just keeps what they tried. They tried taking away. I forget what college was but they tried taking away the girls’ Sports [00:34:35] and the judge said no, you have to put the girls program back on there and get rid of the men’s wrestling.

Jerry: It’s going to be interesting where it goes that what I say.

DJ: That’s why I say Title IX is going to force the women to be paid and that’s going to cause, you say the causes don’t see their effects. It’s going to cause academic losses.

Jerry: So, in the end, I don’t think we can put a conclusion on this because it’s only going to get worse as we go because right now with all these numbers they’re setting it up to where eventually it’s going to happen. It’s going to come down [00:35:05] the road. I hope it doesn’t but you’re going to see college players be compensated.

DJ: I don’t think they should but I think you’re right. I think eventually it’s going to happen. Well, I’d like to tell you once again remind you how to get in touch with us email address is Our, you can also get in touch with us at our website at, Instagram is GrandDesignpodcast and Twitter is granddesignspod. Grand Designs Podcast, Who are you listening to?

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