Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 9 – Performance Enhancing Drugs in Sports Transcript

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This is Grand Design Podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand as we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

[00:00:33] Welcome back. This is episode 9 of The Grand Design Podcast. I’m DJ Grand and I’m joined with my brother Jerry.

Jerry: Welcome

DJ: and our engineer Ryan.

Ryan: Hello.

DJ: Today, we’re talking about a sticky subject performance-enhancing drugs in all sports, but we’re going to focus starting with on baseball because that’s where a major of top…

Jerry: That’s where the outrage, that that’s where the outrage lies. Let’s just [00:01:03] start out. It’s not really taken as I want to say seriously, but it’s no big deal for NFL player gets caught with steroids that the league fine them but the fans don’t get outraged, the media does not write the articles unlike baseball. You got guys that are banned from the Hall of Fame just because they did performance-enhancing drugs will call him steroids, but performance-enhancing drugs. Now, I’ll go back to the 90s when Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa were having that Homerun Battle the league loved it. The owners loved it. Every owner [00:01:33] were those guys came to their town. They were bringing in fans, selling out the park. The league knew it was happening and it was okay because it was bringing in revenue, so owners took a step back. It’s okay.

DJ: There’s a couple of things there. First, it is the home runs as the problem with for the most part…

Jerry: Chicks dig the Long ball

DJ:  but that’s where you get. I mean steroids not just their performance enhancing drugs benefit you the most hitting the long ball. I mean it can make you quicker, too but that’s where the true benefit is. Now as far as the Major League Baseball letting it go [00:02:03] I think that’s result of this the season short and when they had that strike and they still weren’t as popular because right after that strike the baseball’s popularity nosedived,

Jerry: correct

DJ: and they were there are allowing it because that’s what brought the popularity back,

Jerry: Correct it brought baseball back, but it was those performance enhancing drugs that were given McGwire and Sosa the power to do what they were doing. Not only the chicks dig the long ball, the ratings, everything was up that year for Major League Baseball. He even did [00:02:33] an interview with his bottle of Anural above in his closet

DJ: Andro

Jerry: Andro, it was at the time it was legal when they did the whole first after they had retired in the came out. It was Sports enhancing. They then made it illegal then when they came out with an 80-game ban for 162 Game season. But it was after the media, pretty much just let it…there was some leak and then even going to…I don’t know if it’s cortisone or b12 with the NFL. A player [00:03:04] gets injured hamstring, whatever it’s not major they can still play would that be performance-enhancing because now he can play with that injury and maybe even better because he doesn’t feel pain.

DJ: I don’t think that makes you better I mean, it’s like a vitamin. A vitamin, if you take your right vitamins, it makes you healthy. It doesn’t make you better so I don’t in terms of performance of running faster, of hitting a home run longer

Jerry: I’ll say better in the context of he’s torn his hamstring and now he can’t run, [00:03:34] now he’s out. But you give him that cortisone, now he can run

DJ: he’s healthy. That’s why I said…

Jerry: It’s a false healthy,

DJ: but in terms of him, he just able to. Basically, it doesn’t make you be able to run any faster. It just gets you back to the starting point

Jerry: because with the baseball players. It makes him hit the ball farther. With the pitchers, Roger Clemens. He’s the only well-known pitcher that went down in this whole scandal. You don’t think that made him a little harder to hit he can throw [00:04:04] the ball a little bit harder

DJ: Oh, absolutely.

Jerry: Now,

DJ: he’s stronger and therefore he pitched better

Jerry: than this is total speculation on my part. But if I’m trying to put myself in the league I’m playing in the league and it’s important for my team, my contract. It’s me, I’m thinking of myself, my family. Clemens is throwing the ball hundred miles an hour 99 miles an hour whether or not I know he’s taking performance-enhancing drugs now for me to win that battle if I can’t hit him at my normal ability. Now I have [00:04:34] a decision to make. Do I take performance-enhancing drugs so I can be successful and there’s where that trap falls in and I’ll go one step lower it hits the minor Leaguers because they want to go to the Big Show if they want to be able to perform with the big guns? They’re going to…their choice is do I do them and not get caught because there’s been phases with the whole, you’ll have some pharmacist’s chemist that will come up with an undetectable drug. AK. I don’t know his name, but the gentleman with Alex Rodriguez and that wasn’t Balco with something else. He [00:05:04] was a doctor. Everything was underground. No one knew even they didn’t believe good boy, Alex Rodriguez. I get why he did it because it was stressed, the numbers, the contract, the pressure he was under, he was in these injuries. He couldn’t live up to meet that contract with the Yankees. So, he starts

DJ: those are rationalizations. I don’t think it justifies it and well, you mentioned Roger Clemens

Jerry: I’m not saying it justifies it. All these players. It’s that they got to get to that next level.

DJ: Once again, if you were talking about Roger Clemens, that’s one pitcher. So, you’re going to juice [00:05:34] up to take on one pitcher and all the rest of the pitchers are normal

Jerry: that we know of

DJ: and that gives you, that justifies you to make you better against all the pitchers instead of just one

Jerry: Well, Clemens

DJ: I think that’s a rationalization.

Jerry: if I’m going against him. He’s like if I was in the American League in the Yankees, I’ve always going against Red Sox. Yeah, I’m going against him a lot and he’s striking me out,

DJ: but that doesn’t answer my question that you’re just one pitcher and you’re saying you’re allowed to juice up because of one pitcher

Jerry: that I know of. I mean, he was the most famous pitcher that went down. I’m [00:06:04] sure there’s a few other pitchers, again. I’m talking to myself if I’m in the league and I know Clemens is juicing up now. I got a decision do I juice up because I want to be able to combat hit that ball get my bat speed to be quicker to meet that fastball. This is all about keep it up at playing at that high level.

DJ: It’s all about Pragmatism, the end justifies the means

Jerry: that goes back to our first episode but it is what it is.

DJ: That doesn’t make it right. That doesn’t make it acceptable. You shouldn’t have to, it’s cheating. The bottom [00:06:34] line it’s cheating is shouldn’t have to cheat to get ahead and now, part of it is enforcement. I mean you can there’s a history of performance enhancing drugs. I mean we go back to 1889 picture Pud Galvin became the first player to be widely known for using performance-enhancing substances. He was he used basically a testosterone supplement derived from the testicles of live animals such as dogs and guinea pigs. So that’s 1889 and remember the movie [00:07:04] 61 with the Roger Maris.

Jerry: Yes

DJ: Okay, when Mickey Mantle had that infection in his hip there was a reporter who claimed that that was because of performance-enhancing drugs that…

Jerry: that Mickey Mantle was taking?

DJ: Yes. The infection was in fact, it’s writer Zev Chafets, C-H-A-F-E-T-S, Mickey Mantle’s fade during the 1961 home run chase with Roger Maris was the indirect result of an attempt by Mantle to gain a substance-based edge. [00:07:34] Chaffetz alleges that Mantle was hampered by an abscess created by a botched injection of a chemical cocktail administered by a quack doctor.

Jerry: Now, it’s all movie was all portrayed as a flu shot correct, or he had the flu and it was…

DJ: the point is this author claimed that that was substance…

Jerry: I’ve never heard of Mickey Mantle was doing that

DJ: Well…

Jerry: and that’s the Pretty Boy of Major League Baseball.

DJ: Well, his book is “Let steroids into the Hall of Fame,” The [00:08:04] New York Times. Okay was it was a not a book or article New York Times June 29th 2009. So it’s just one person saying it and you have to read the book to find or the article to find out more about it

Jerry: that really kind of stunning that Mickey

DJ: point is

Jerry: I’ve never heard it before

DJ: There’s history of it,

Jerry: correct. Well, then why aren’t these guys banned? Why are these Sousa’s the McGwire’s the Rafael Palmeiro’s for using it when I never heard Mickey Mantle did it?

DJ: Well, [00:08:34] not just that, there’s Mike Schmidt, Goose Gossage is on here. It’s I think it well. First of all, it wasn’t illegal until 1991. So, before that, in Mickey Mantle’s time it was legal

Jerry: so, before okay at that time then

DJ: and then they didn’t start enforcing it in the MLB until 2005

Jerry: that makes it okay?

DJ: I didn’t say it was okay I’m saying it wasn’t illegal. That’s why and since they started making it illegal in 1991 then it officially became cheating. Now, it wasn’t okay, ethically so okay, but by the law of [00:09:04] baseball it was okay and there’s a difference between the law and morals

Jerry: But back in the 60s you say with that article that there were players doing it. Now those players who were performance-enhancing drugs legally are still in the Hall of Fame. What’s the difference between the besides the year 60 and 80?

DJ: I think it’s the nuance of being illegal. It’s illegal after 1991.

Jerry: Why?

DJ: it wasn’t Illegal…the MLB didn’t enforce it. I don’t think they thought it was a rampant problem. In fact, I don’t think they knew it was [00:09:34] rampant problem until the BALCO incident and then Jose Canseco’s book “Juiced.”

Jerry: I think…

DJ: that’s what made that’s everyone aware and not just MLB everyone aware and was that pressure that causes them to enforce it.

Jerry: I’m thinking MLB new, right, I’ll go back to 94. They knew it was a rampant problem. Bud Selig, the commissioner, he knew and he did not say anything because it was bringing baseball back. It was up in the ratings. What the Home Run what that [00:10:04]

DJ: Once again, I think that was because of that strike. I mean that changed the entire dynamic. They were desperate for get their popularity back up

Jerry: I guess my point is, when the media brought it out to the attention, then all of a sudden all we got a bad thing here.

DJ: Well

Jerry: because why doesn’t, like I opened up, the media just leaves NFL players alone. Sudafed, would you consider that performance-enhancing?

DJ: I don’t know. I don’t know what it does

Jerry: Hockey players, they use it all the time for energy that quick burst. And sometimes it’s what I hear it can [00:10:34] give you that just a burst of energy. Would you consider that perform enhancing? Not even this could be a stupid question. What about Five Hour Energy?

DJ: I was just going to say that it’s no more…It’s no different than taking that which is caffeine.

Ryan: Caffeine’s a drug

Jerry: I mean is that performance-enhancing? Are you more focused are you…? Now, we’re going to the workplace now, are you more focused at your job that you’re better now than the guy next to you. And so, we should abandon 5-hour Energy now

DJ: Since you bring that up, there’s a difference between like [00:11:04] even a cop, a construction worker or firemen, they could be on performance-enhancing drugs and I don’t even bet you it would be a benefit. We’re talking about strict competition here. And that’s the context that’s different than all those other jobs. It’s you’re competing and that’s supposed to be on a fair level.

Jerry: So, I was trying to bring it up was the competition is what makes that person even think about taking performance-enhancing because they want to win. They want to do better. For [00:11:34] example, the minor league player The Fringe player. I’ve heard many read many a story with that Fringe player who’s been in the league 10 years and they got a choice. They either shoot up taking performance-enhancing to make the Big Show or stay in the minor leagues. And some players, just they want that notoriety that Fame the Hall of Fame, the Big Show and so they rationalize it as just what I’m talking about competition for them to be able to compete

DJ: competition is what makes [00:12:04] it wrong. See it doesn’t…just because others are doing it, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Jerry: I understand but I’m just saying that competition is what driving some of these you always got these people. It’s almost like Ryan was saying a couple episodes ago, you got that person that’s just going to, no matter what, they’re going to go above and beyond and break the rules. It’s almost like that here you get that one person that wants that edge that wants to hit the ball for Roger Clemens that wants to make the Major League Baseball and only way they can do it. They’ve come to the conclusion, I’ve got to shoot up.

DJ: It darkens [00:12:34] your soul. It makes you impure there is my biggest problem with all of this is you are no longer pure

Jerry: I agree

DJ: and both ethically and physically you are now impure

Jerry: I kind of think down the road. They’re not going to have a long career correct. They’re going to have injuries. There’s going to be like as Mickey Mantle. I just found out which I did not know that there’s going to be consequences down the road. They’ll have to live with those consequences then but for the time being they can compete they got that lifestyle they can get that contract now.

DJ: You’re just talking pure [00:13:04] Pragmatism me. The end justifies the means, it doesn’t make it right.

Jerry: Yes, the end justifies the means I got to get to the Big Show. I want to play I’m stuck in the minor leagues or if you’re in the Big Show, Clemens is always striking me out. He’s juicing up. I’m going to have to do something if I want to get that hit, especially come playoff time, game seven, the World Series. It’s all about that one play. I mean that notoriety that fame of being carried off. That’s what everyone’s thinking about what can we do or I do to achieve that?

DJ: The problem is the word have to. You just said it. I have to

Jerry: it’s [00:13:34] a choice. It’s a choice.

DJ: You don’t have to do it. You can still be honorable. You don’t have to lie. You don’t have to cheat. It’s all about have to. Have to means you have a duty

Jerry: some of the people though, the players are go the underway never make it to the end of The Big Show and they did an honorably

DJ: it doesn’t matter

Jerry: there are guys

DJ: doesn’t matter

Jerry: players that they watch cheat make it

DJ: The prize doesn’t matter. You still keep your soul, your untainted soul. Now, you said you put yourself into it. I put myself into it. I don’t want to take my soul. It’s not [00:14:04] worth that. I don’t care. There’s not a much money. There’s not fame. There’s not Glory that is worth ruining my soul. I want to be a good person and if you cheat, willfully cheat, knowing it. You’re not a good person.

Jerry: I understand what you’re saying, but you don’t want to cheat, you want a good soul. But you some of that stuff when it comes down to you make a decision. That’s not even a part of the equation. It’s about success and wanting to be better at whatever you’re trying to achieve football, baseball, basketball, MMA. Whatever it is. I think that again, I myself [00:14:34] I agree with you,

DJ: I think it would be wrong.

Jerry: Okay, you want to be clean but what I guess I’m trying to say is I can understand where those guys just I can see where they want to get that level and they throw out what you just said being clean. I’ll worry about that later. I want to win

DJ: There’s no worrying about it. Once you’re unclean, you’re unclean. It’s like a fresh patch of snow. Once you get one footprint into it the whole thing’s ruined. There’s no going back. Once you do it, it’s done. It’s ruined.

Jerry: I never knew Mickey Mantle did whatever, performance enhancing [00:15:04] drugs until just now.

DJ: What’s that have to do with anything?

Jerry: I never knew about is how many people if they don’t know? All right. It’s only that person who knows great.

DJ: Your argument is that you know that they’re cheating. So, therefore, I have to cheat that was your argument

Jerry: that’s almost like it’s a shop you it’s within the players. It’s not a public thing. Look again, Major League Baseball kept it pretty much under wraps, what was going on. They were fully aware McGwire. Sosa, Palmerio, Roger [00:15:34] Clemens and I’ll probably much much more we’re doing these performance enhancing drugs and they let it go because their numbers are going up so they fully well just hands up in the air until the Press came out. Alright, so Major League Baseball these owners, they’re just using these guys has equipment. So, they’re basically saying one breath. Hey, it’s okay. Go ahead do what you got to do because our gates low save the game, but then when the Press leaks it what have you and now, we got a problem and now we’re going to come down and act like we’re the moral righteousness. How dare you [00:16:04] even think about doing that.

DJ: Well, they’re wrong but from Major League Baseball’s point of view it got their popularity back up and then after their popularity was back up again,  

Jerry: Was that Pragmatic?

DJ: Oh absolutely. I’m just telling you their point of view.

Jerry: It was the owners

DJ: Hold on. That was the reason for allowing it. It doesn’t make it right. It wasn’t right. But their reason was we get our popularity back up and now that we’ve achieved it, now we can go after it again.

Jerry: But I think the players are doing the same thing. Once I get my achievement up not popularity just a [00:16:34] different context.

DJ: We just said that Major League Baseball was wrong for doing it. How can they be right for doing the same thing?

Jerry: I’m not saying they’re right. I can I’m saying I understand what they were doing

DJ: saying you understand it is almost justifying it. I don’t understand and there’s a difference between you and I. I don’t get it. I don’t see why cheating is right no matter how many people are doing it. If you’re playing Monopoly and you know all three other people you’re playing with are cheating, that makes it right for you to cheat?

Jerry: Are you going to win?

DJ: It’s not about winning. I’ll win when it comes to my soul. What [00:17:04] I would do then is not play with those people,

Jerry: but you got well try to say a lot of people although it’s all about winning isn’t about the soul in the philosophical correctness. They don’t sit there and think about that

DJ: you’re right, but that we can the end winning justifies doing whatever it takes to win, which means I can trip, I can punch, I can bring my cleats up high sliding into second base like Ty Cobb used to, all that becomes Okay, if you’re going to go by pragmatism in any realm.

Jerry: how many times have you heard, If you don’t get caught it’s [00:17:34] not cheating?

DJ: That doesn’t mean it’s not cheating.

Not that I agree with that saying…

DJ: all that means is all that means is you didn’t get caught, you still cheated.

Jerry: Correct.

DJ: So that just means that’s self-defeating you still cheated

Jerry: I think some of…

DJ: it’s a rationalization.

Jerry: I wish I could think of what I think was TJ Lang recently on a radio show was saying that to be a good offensive lineman, they’re holding. Every everyone says and they know they’re holding every play. So, to be a good offensive lineman is not to get caught. Hands in, you know, make it look like he was kind of giving you the [00:18:04] detail book of how to do it how to cheat it hold not

DJ: You just said it, you just said it, how to cheat. If you’re holding, you’re cheating, especially if you’re doing it willfully

Jerry: Well, if you go with I didn’t get caught, the ref pulled the flag, it’s a legal play. I mean, come on.

DJ: No, it’s not legal. No, that’s a rationalization.

Jerry: They didn’t get caught

DJ: that doesn’t…all that means is they didn’t get caught. It’s still an illegal play. So, you’re telling me that in the New Orleans Saints game at the end of last season, he didn’t get caught, so, that was a legal play.

Jerry: He’s pledged as a hero

DJ: answer my question, please, was it legal [00:18:34] play please, my question nothing else.

Jerry: No, it was completely illegal.

DJ: So, it has nothing to do with being caught does it?

Jerry: Again, it wasn’t called.

DJ: It doesn’t matter. Please answer my question being caught or being called being called is irrelevant. The question is: is it cheating? Is it cheating if you do it?

Jerry: Okay, that I don’t think that player cheated the ref screwed up. Now the ref didn’t make the call had the ref called and held them to what the rules were. Now the player look afterwards it that I got [00:19:04] got comical. He was facing it. The ref didn’t see nothing, it was a legal play. I get that but at the point the ref didn’t make the call, it goes back and every coaches they game plans.

DJ: Are you telling me he didn’t willfully hit him before the Ball came there?

Jerry: Oh, he went to knock him out, absolutely.

DJ: Okay, then in a way he cheated.

Jerry: I think he got up and said he was surprised that flag wasn’t thrown.

DJ:  if he did it, if he did it knowingly, know it was illegal, it was wrong and still did it. He cheated.

Jerry: Are you asking for the every [00:19:34] sport to have the golf etiquette that they penalize themselves?

DJ: Actually, if you want to be moral, you have to. That’s why I’m asking every person to think of themselves in that way that I would penalize myself, if I did that.  

Jerry: a good example…

DJ: I feel bad in anything I do that I know is immoral, I feel bad and that’s how every person should be in sports and in every endeavor in life.

Jerry: I would agree but there’s a It was a commercial I’ve ever seen it this year old maybe in the basketball tournament will see it more but it’s a basketball game going and the player [00:20:04] knew it went off him and the ref called it to the other team and the player goes up after the timeout says no ref went off me. Now. That’s a TV commercial that is not happening.

DJ: Did it actually happen or not?

Jerry: it was It was a commercial to promote playing the right way.

DJ: isn’t that bad that the good has to be fiction, isn’t that sad?

Jerry: That’s why I was bringing that up. That it’s a commercial that has to bring that to our attention and there were people that were laughing at that,saying that ain’t reality, that’s [00:20:34] not happening

DJ: If you live by principle, it would be reality.

Jerry: That’s why I’m getting at. I get the principle, but in all these situations, I don’t think one person even thinks about principle. I mean in the MMA are they thinking about principle when they’re juicing up or they’re getting ready for a fight?

Ryan:  those people don’t but I mean, there’s people that do

Jerry: correct but out of…are they a minority or is that the majority?

Ryan: I don’t know, I mean it is…it’s a very big, you know subject I’ve used to with every sport but you know, it’s when you get into, you [00:21:05] know, like the UFC and all that they’re really cracking down on it since they kind of had a problem with it the beginning, you know, and then they had all these leagues that you could go over and they basically were like you should do steroids or whatever

Jerry: so, they were promoting it?

Ryan: some leagues that were you know, and but then there’s the argument of a lot of people were such big fans of those like fighters and like those people because they were kind of let loose to do what they want. They had, you know, they could reach these levels they wouldn’t be able to do [00:21:35] without drugs. So, it’s like if you talk to a fan and maybe a promoter, they’d be like, well, that’s why we did it and that’s why they like watching it because it made it more interesting, you know sport but you know, it’s still good. But that’s like with sports. It’s not going to make Sports boring. You know, we don’t do them.

DJ: You know what that makes me think? That we are still uncivilized.

Ryan: Oh, totally, yeah

DJ: We’re still under Roman days when we used to watch the Christians be a hit by lions or the Gladiators and up and down for death.

Ryan: Yeah.

DJ: I mean that is [00:22:05] uncivilized and tells me we have an advanced at all.

Ryan: Yeah.

DJ: Should there be the question is then, should there be an extra League? Like you said a separately for those enhanced people and then one for the pure people

Jerry: It won’t work because here’s what the money’s in the I’ll use the NFL even baseball for that matter. The money is in the NFL in Major League Baseball. They’re doing these performance enhancing drugs to get the big contract. If they go to a lead that’s just all steroids, the money’s not there.

Ryan: Oh, yeah , it won’t be

DJ: at [00:22:35] the beginning it won’t be I don’t but if you brand your league, if you market it well eventually…what you’re saying is there’s no possible way that anyone could ever compete with the NFL or Major League Baseball or the NHL. It is very possible. It’s hard. I’m not saying it would be easy but it’s very possible that you could if you did the business right? You could. I’m not for this. This isn’t purely hypothetical because I don’t think you should do it at all. But if you’re going to do it, it should be separate.

Jerry: You’re going to have to offer to the AAF [00:23:05] is out of this now the AFF? I forget right now. The alliance’s football league going on right now, their problem is they can’t offer the big money there 20 40,000 50,000 our contracts. They’re not big money. There’s no person in the NFL that wants big money that’s going to go to this league unless you give them the million-dollar contract. So you got to have that money up your branding I get but you got to have that money before a player is not going to say they’re not going to say I you know, yeah, I’ll go on this performance enhancing League. I’ll play for three to four years because I’m going to kill my body and [00:23:35] then I’m done and I’ll just set it up for the next generation to get paid. You’ve got NFL players like Jim Brown that are real kind of upset with how they got paid to how they’re getting paid right now.

DJ: But if you guys are right and people want to see that because they want to see the bigger people the harder hits then popularity would eventually increase it’s going to be hard. Please don’t get I might as not going be an easy endeavor, but…

Ryan: I think they just want to stick with what they know and just have the rules not be there. You know, I’m saying, you know, they want to watch the NFL for that or that you know, [00:24:05] whatever it may be, you know, they don’t want to like switch to a whole other thing. It sounds lazy

Jerry: I’m going to call the fan sheep because they’ll do whatever the media drives them in whatever area because before the fans loved McGuire and Sosa loved it. Then when the media came out, you still got some fans that don’t mind it but it was the media that somehow TV ESPN The Articles non-stop bombardment of all it of how they were appalled but during that ten-year period the media is writing stories and the [00:24:35] fans loved it. So, they were getting that, but once to media brought to the attention, its kind of went to the downhill. Those are the owners were just thinking about the money. They’re making off of those guys doing that and they didn’t care but when the media by all no, no, we never knew. How dare them do that. Shame, shame, shame. We got to get a new policy. Mr. Selig. Now, it’s an 82-game suspension to make them look good. Like they weren’t they weren’t a part of it when they were a part of that. Now again, the fans loved it then again, they’re all getting millions [00:25:05] of dollars. You’re going to have a hard time starting a league unless you have the millions of dollars to pay them.

DJ: Did you not hear me say it wouldn’t be easy?

Ryan: Yeah.

Jerry: Well, I’m just going to say not easy almost impossible.

DJ: No, I wouldn’t say it’s almost I wouldn’t say it’s all even almost impossible. It would be very hard. But with the right marketing and the right branding and the attention which all that is included in it. You would eventually slowly. I mean just like our podcast

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: starts out small and hopefully we’ll get big eventually [00:25:35] it would be the same thing. Especially, If what you guys you’re the premise you both are coming from that people want to see this

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: if they want to see this, then they’re going to be there’s the Gladiators the enhanced.

Ryan: Well, yeah, you have to understand too if when you’re talking about before enhancing drugs and you know, the best of the League’s that were talking about the highest of the highs. I mean, you just got to understand these people are perform at such like a level. You can’t even comprehend. Obviously, we’ve all played Sports here [00:26:05] and you know, it’s just too though to like steroids and whatever, you know, you’re taking it’s not necessarily like it’s not bad for you. You know it actually, you know, like helps with recovery. I’ve never done steroids. Let me just say that sound but you know, it’s like the whole like kind of like Wolverine like The X Factor thing like it just you can break down your body so much more and then have it healthy like in a healthy way, you know regenerate faster than normal and that’s how you get like the performance [00:26:35] enhance. You know, it doesn’t it just gets you to that level so much faster for my understanding

DJ: there are legitimate reasons, health reasons for steroids and everyday people Not Just Sports. So I totally agree with that but what we’re talking about with the Andro and the troop the testosterone performance enhancers.

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: that makes you hit farther go faster.

Ryan: Yeah. That’s true, yeah, you get better

DJ: those are the illegitimate ones.

Jerry: The example that I can think of is I know you remember thick Vic,

DJ: of [00:27:05] course,

Jerry: okay weightlifting…

DJ: His thigh was bigger than my whole body.

Jerry: Okay, but how did his thigh get that big? Now, this guy’s out there competing. All right competition and he wanted to

DJ: rumor has it, he took Guerrilla testosterone to get that big

Jerry: His dad was a doctor from Africa who brought the gorilla testosterone back to this country and he took it only so he could start winning the competition’s

DJ: he’s a Pragmatist. That’s all you’re telling me.

Jerry:  okay, but no [00:27:35] no, I’m sorry. Well trying to get at is what Ryan was saying look some of these people they’re playing at a high level. Okay, that not everyone can play at that level then they come to the point to where they realized that they want to succeed. It’s performing they got to enhance their performance, but you look at it as cheating. Okay. Well, where’s a short

DJ: wait a minute age can do that, not just injury age kids, but in baseball, especially during the steroid era.

Jerry: Yeah.

DJ: It went from like an average of a home run hitters over 40 at 28 [00:28:05] up to 30 so base what you’re saying is it’s a legitimatizing and saying that while since I’m falling out of it, I’m not as good as I used to be. I can enhance that by cheating

Jerry: why can’t the players have the choice?

Ryan: Yeah,

Jerry: why can’t they have the choice to do it or not? And if you want to play the honorable role, you know, this is pure West. Okay go at it. But if you got the guts

DJ: look, do you know what your argument is? Why can’t we have the choice to cheat? That’s what your argument is. What why can I not choose to cheat?

Ryan: I mean, I guess [00:28:35] if it isn’t in the rule book, Hey, you’re cheating that right. I know you’re saying

Jerry:  but the makeup was there making up as they go along because again baseball was cool with it until the Press came out and then they had to make the rules to where it was bad.

DJ: I don’t think there are cool with it. They let it go. They let it go for their own end and then after they got back up again, they stopped it because they wouldn’t if they were cool with it. They never would have made it illegal 1991.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry: I’m not mistaken the only thing that really brought it out was that Mitchell report when the government got involved

DJ: that [00:29:05] was a light-being shined in the darkness. I agree.

Jerry: Okay, but at what point is the government come to the enhancing league and say whoa. Whoa. Whoa, we’re not going to let you do this because it’s regulated

DJ: That’s a bad government. If you’re starting the league and you’re starting the rules saying that this is enhancing league, then everyone should be left

Jerry: The government isn’t exactly good right now. So that being said I could see them coming in

DJ: That’s a different a different argument. We can talk about that, but that’s different argument

Jerry: That’s a whole other podcast about that. But I’m just bringing that up that at some point when you get this league, [00:29:35] there’s some other faction and there’s all I bring up think Vic you always going to have that person that wants to go the next level and they’re at this high level and yes to cheat to get to the next level, Thick Vic. If I want to win these competitions, yeah, I got to sit here and walk, you know. Yeah, you’re right 42-inch thighs.

Ryan: So, what’s different? So if you’re like cycling though, you know, like not biking but even though that was obviously Lance Armstrong and all that, but you know, If you’re talking about this is your career, you’re in whatever sport it may be and [00:30:05] you do performance enhancing drugs more or less on the offseason, let’s just say to you know, obviously have that offseason just go even

Jerry: recuperate.

Ryan: Yeah, you know and then you just get off it is that just as bad. I think it is. It’s like it’s like they can never touch the stuff

DJ: I think it is, basically once you lie, it’s a lie you can’t go back on it. I mean morally lying and murder are equivalent. They’re both immoral is so it’s sort of like that. I mean if they’re still wrong [00:30:35]

Jerry: don’t you still have to hit the ball?

DJ: Oh my gosh. Okay. I don’t see how

Jerry: you and I we had

DJ: I don’t see how hand-eye coordination it has anything to do with strength and running faster because yes, you do still have to hit the ball. You still have to have that athletic ability. No doubt about that. But your hand-eye coordination. I mean I have his hand-eye coordination. I couldn’t have hit the home runs and I was always the base hitter

Jerry: and do you think that if you took the Andro whatever it may be Balco that you’d be hitting home runs

DJ: probably [00:31:05] they would have helped me, it would enhance me and maybe at least hit deeper. I mean, maybe not home runs, but I could at least hit it deeper. So yeah, I do think it would have enhanced my ability.

Jerry:  but you still got to go out there and do it.

DJ: Okay, here’s the ultimate hypothetical. We’re talking fiction here, but Steve Austin and bionic arms. So therefore, if I’m able to through technology have these enhanced arms as she will go out there and do it?

Jerry: I guess, if you crash a government’s rocket. [00:31:35] That’s don’t know

DJ: please stick to point, stick to my point. Should I be able to do it if I was able to get enhanced arms bionic arms?

Ryan: now, but I mean that will be a topic of discussion probably in the future.

Jerry: I’m not sure bionic arms and enhanced drugs should kind of like

DJ: the both enhancements. It’s a different form but the both

Jerry: yes, is not the same form

DJ: and to me that both be cheating if one bionic person was in a league with non-bionic, that would be cheating.

Jerry: I have to get me a bionic

DJ: they have an advantage, [00:32:05] a non-natural advantage to so I think it would be just as wrong bionic arms be just as wrong as using performance-enhancing drugs that’s my opinion.

Ryan: So what about like marijuana then because that could be looked at as a performance-enhancing if it’s you know, helping somebody with you know inflammation or just recovering

DJ: but that’s not performance enhancing. Its we’re talking help us like vitamins and that’s close to

Ryan: like it’s a drug and it’s legal in [00:32:35] some places and it’s changing but It’s just one of those weird ones that you know in a lot of leagues if you get busted for that, you can get a lot of trouble. You know, it’s slowly changing

Jerry: with the feds they are still a big deal.

Ryan: Yeah, you know,

DJ: The Feds are irrelevant. I get your point. If we’re going to just talk about marijuana and itself, I don’t think that enhance and you as far as ability goes it may help you recover the same as vitamins and we’re going on that road we’re saying no one can ever had vitamins don’t think as ridiculous absurd no one ever agree with that but as long as [00:33:05] it is illegal in the rules and you shouldn’t use it. The question is should that rule be changed to make it legal because it’s not a performance enhancing drug.

Ryan: Yeah. Well, I don’t know might think it does it not saying they’re right or wrong but it’s just like, you know, like it enhance my performance like that’s like what they would say, you know, but this is like, you know, I all I’m saying is like if you’re doing testosterone and going on the field, you know, High drunk whatever it may be. I mean, you’re not allowed to do that. You know, [00:33:35] that’s like being under the influence in a sport.

DJ: Well, as far as marijuana goes, I know when I did it and I’d have it would have to face a curveball. I’d be like far out. They didn’t get a I’m not going to hit that thing.

Ryan:  You know it depends on the sport, too

DJ: true but I don’t think how that particular drug would be an enhancement. In fact, I think it would be a detriment but you know, some people could thrive on it and if it is determined that they are artificially better than someone else because of it than I think it should be illegal. But from what I know about [00:34:05] it, I don’t think it’s that much of an enhancement that it should be,

Ryan: you know, then they had people that obviously, you know do like cocaine or something like that and try it, you know can…

Jerry:  see, since that you brought that up

DJ: that I think is an enhancement.

Jerry: Well absolutely not I brought the federal government. You said it was irrelevant, but they have marijuana is the same scheduled a narcotic as cocaine.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: it does but just because

Jerry: that’s not a vitamin, now

DJ: Just because one person or government or state, classifies it. you have to separate it because what we’re talking about is private Enterprise. We’re not talking [00:34:35] about the government about

Jerry: how much other governments step in and that’s what happened  in baseball.

DJ: It’s irrelevant to the argument. You’re dealing with a logical fallacy. It’s irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a court of law and we were discussing this that would be thrown out because it’s irrelevant. It’s that’s for another case,

Jerry: but it was the government in the Mitchell report that brought out this whole thing. I really believe had they not done that the fans would have been they were accepting of it until this report came out and then it became taboo.  DJ: Okay, that’s a different issue because [00:35:05] the Mitchell report was initialed by the government, but the government wasn’t laying down laws, you’re talking about you brought up the marijuana schedule I of it

Jerry: correct

DJ:  because they’re laying down the law that’s a separate issue. It’s not what we’re talking about. Now we’re talking about now is in the private sector should performance-enhancing drugs be allowed?

Jerry: Well, again, we get to that if you call it cheating then obviously you can’t cheat.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry: again, I’m going to go back and say [00:35:35] I understand what I do. No, I don’t want that clean soul, but I can understand where someone would make that choice and I couldn’t condemn them for doing this. I guess what I’m saying. I couldn’t call them cheater

DJ: I could, you have to condemn any immoral act. I mean just like saying someone made a choice to commit a murder you have to condemn that if you know, it is immoral. You must if you’re a moral person condemn that if you know someone is cheating, if it qualifies is cheating, you must condemn it. If you are to want to consider [00:36:05] yourself to be a moral person.

Ryan: I know they have like levels and like there’s like with testosterone and all that. I don’t know it like salad or anything, but if you’re lower in it like you go to the doctors and like, oh, you’re young your t-levelers the lower sum and you get prescribed on that like is that okay? And you’re still playing?

DJ: Well, let’s go back to the talking about the transgenders playing.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah.

DJ: The ones were trans…

Ryan: They would have to be taken that stuff.

DJ: Yes, [00:36:35] but they were transferring from a male to a female. Male in there on low testosterone and the females were complaining because that is still testosterone even if it is low. So, there’s an example where absolutely no, it shouldn’t be. I think an even the slightest enhancement if you know, it’s there it’s you should disqualify yourself. I can’t do it because I am on this now.

Ryan: Yeah, that’s a gray area.

Jerry: Yeah, very grey because again, I understand what you’re saying, but for the competition [00:37:05] thing

DJ: but morally speaking what is grey? What is grey? Black is bad, white is good. And you’re mixing black and white that is still part bad.

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: They are evil. So therefore, it’s gray is bad, just as bad as black. It’s you must you must be white. I said pure that snow field that’s pure anything less,  one step into that that field, your impure.

Ryan: Well, I think it’s like shouldn’t it just be you have a commission that [00:37:35] you know, we’ll check if you’re doing this, you know, whatever. However, they test for it. I mean as long as you pass that I guess in that okay, like is not the only way to really kind of like monitor this?

DJ: it isn’t over to monitoring it but it’s kind of like what he was saying earlier. If I don’t get caught, then had becomes okay,

Jerry: there are ways to hide it.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: I’m sure there are to masks it. I’m sure there are however, that doesn’t make it right.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: it’s Socrates invisible ring. He brought up the fact that if you had an invisible ring, you would still you [00:38:05] would then be more of an immoral person because you wouldn’t get caught and you could he would steal you could do just about anything and not get caught. I think if you’re wearing that immoral…wearing that invisible ring, it makes you be a better person because it would be easier. It’s like superheroes (with great power comes) with greater responsibility. It’s exactly the same thing. I mean you need to be even more moral, more aware of yourself and in these situations, they should be more moral more aware [00:38:35] of themselves

Jerry: I believe to this day Roger Clemens will say I’ve never had a positive test for performance enhancing drugs meaning. He never failed. He never got caught 

DJ: yeah, that doesn’t mean take it and that’s what it that’s those little Nuance that says, yeah, I think you can catch me but that doesn’t mean I didn’t take it just means it means he took it. I didn’t git caught.

Jerry: The offensive lineman who holds every time but never does anything wrong until the ref flags him.

DJ: So, I guess if you’re in your math class and you bring out your little your [00:39:05] little cheat (sheet) and you get away with it every time, therefore, you’re okay because I didn’t get caught. That’s absurd.  That’s absolutely absurd.

Jerry: I would think yes

DJ: How could any more person stand for that? I mean if I was the person…think what that does to the person who is actually working hard to not cheat

Jerry: how many people

DJ: that puts them at a disadvantage

Jerry: who are moral and there they have a choice for a huge contract now, I’m going to go The Honorable way I’m you know, I’m going to stay cleaning [00:39:35] this I’m going to stay pure. You know, I’m just going to go down this righteous path

DJ: doesn’t matter if it’s every single person if it doesn’t matter if it’s every single person in the world, it only takes one person yourself to do it. And then if it was me, ideally, I would say no, I’m not doing this. No, it’s wrong. If you know, it’s wrong see when it comes to morality. There are two things. It’s either an error of knowledge or breach of morality. If you didn’t know, the error of knowledge part, then it’s not immoral, then you made [00:40:05] a mistake. But once you know, you don’t have that option again,

Jerry: Clemens is saying I was just saying that I never knowingly took the cream.

DJ: No, Clemens was saying, he never got caught. He didn’t say he didn’t know that’s a huge difference.

Jerry: Barry Bonds said I did I took it under unawaringly. I was using the cream as a muscle relaxer not knowing that it was BALCO, whatever steroids.

DJ: Okay, my question that is, is that a lie told to the media to make himself look better or actually the truth. If it’s actually [00:40:35] the truth, then it is an error of knowledge. But once again did it after he knew once he was told there was back to the continue taking it because if he did at that point, he would have definitely been immoral

Jerry: I guess my point is when they’re looking at the big million-dollar contract tens of millions. Yeah. I want I want to cheat but then when they get caught I didn’t knowingly do it to justify while they because they want to look their lifestyle. Everybody wants that lifestyle. They want, you know to be able to attain that level and sometimes you get that Red Wing [00:41:05] mentality, whatever it takes

DJ: Remember, you always break it down to a Rush song “but glittering prizes and endless compromises shatters the illusion of integrity.” That’s exactly what it is.

Jerry: I agree.

DJ:  Endless compromises caused by the glittering prizes. I don’t care what the prize is. It’s not worth your soul period in fact you lose. You can carry the Stanley Cup over your head, have all the awards, all of the glory. If you cheated to get it, you’ve lost [00:41:35]

Jerry: I agree. I don’t think other people feel that way.

DJ: It doesn’t matter.

Jerry: What no, I get it. But I think the majority feel that does it doesn’t matter whatever it takes to achieve that

DJ: you realize appeal to the masses, to the majority, is a logical fallacy. Do realize that?

Jerry:  yeah,

DJ: and that’s what you’re arguing, an appeal to them that the masses.

Jerry: I’m just telling you the majority people out there not think like you they’re not thinking of the philosophical The Honorable way. I want to say 9 times out of 10. It’s the other way [00:42:05] maybe 10 times out of 10. People today just get wrapped up in the glittering prizes and the worry about the compromise the consequences later on down the road if there are any and if they come across that I not knowingly did it. That’s what I’m trying to say the public the people out there they whatever it takes to get that lifestyle

DJ: and you just said it, whatever it takes

Jerry: right? Just how many times have we heard that from the Wings? I’m taking it from the sports of the Red Wings to Everyday Life Now, whatever it takes I got to succeed lawyers, [00:42:35] whatever that’s my point. They’re not thinking like you are with the honorable the clean the Purity. They’re not MMA fighters. They don’t think that they want to win whatever takes to win. Whatever takes us there

Ryan: that can be pretty blinding, you know, so

Jerry: yeah,

DJ: what is the reason we have laws

Ryan: To break them

DJ and this breaks down (laughs) actually John Adams (correction, it was James Madison) who said, the reason we need laws is because men are not angels, he’s absolutely right and this also applies to sports because we are not angels. We [00:43:05] have to have that laws to keep us in line. Yeah. I mean we heard a comedian on the way in saying that if murder was legal everyone would do it. I mean the laws which is what keeps us…

Jerry: but you always have that person that’s going to try to find a way to break that law and not get caught and succeed.

DJ: You know, even if everyone else does it I don’t care for me. I want to stay pure I want to do the best I can to be a good person. That’s what it boils down to.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: to being a good person and if even if you’re justifying [00:43:36] it, but you know, you’re cheating. You’re no longer a good person.

Ryan: That’s like that saying what you do, you know, how you do everything like how you do something is how you do everything or something like that, you know, so if you’re a person playing whatever Sport and you are cheating you probably live your life a lot like that, you know,

Jerry: I agree.

DJ: Absolutely right.  That’s why you live by principle and their living by that principle. I mean it comes out everyone needs a philosophy. I said, I’ve said it in the past and it comes out. You can’t deny it you only question is which philosophy live by and [00:44:06] if you’re conscious of your philosophical principles, you can then lead a straight life. Everyone, humans make mistakes and you can verify the path but when you know, you make a mistake you come back on the path of like meditation mindfulness.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: you drift every once in a while, but you just gently bring yourself back to your mindfulness. That’s what needs to be applied if you’re going to be a good person. Anything else?

Ryan: sounds [00:44:36] good.

DJ: Well, I guess I can tell you how to get a hold of us.

Jerry: Yes. If you have any opinions tell us how you feel about this. Where are you at? Would you cheat?

DJ: (sarcastically) would you cheat

Ryan: Do you have an actor’s number that can get us at?

DJ (laughs)

Ryan: Anyways, you can get in touch with us at our website You can follow us on Twitter @Granddesignspod. Instagram is granddesignspodcast. This is The Grand Design [00:45:06] Podcast. Who are you listening to?

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