Grand Podcast – Episode 11 – Participation Trophies Transcript

 [00:00:00] You’re listening to the podcast Detroit Network visit http://www.podcastdetroit.com for more information.

This is Grand Design Podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand where we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

[00:00:34] DJ: Welcome to the Grand Designs Podcast episode 11 I’m DJ Grand and I’m joined again with my brother Jerry.

Jerry: Hello

DJ: and our engineer Ryan.

Ryan: Hello

DJ: Today, I’m going to need to lay a little bit of a foundation of the philosophical Foundation of our subject. We’re going to be talking about participation trophies, but it doesn’t just happen in a vacuum. There’s a reason these trends sort of come up. I like to call them…well, people who know me, [00:01:04] anyways, know me as they know that I’m a philosophical nerd. I get into philosophy a lot and in my studying of the history of philosophy. I’ve sort of learned that it happens in waves on philosophical trends coming waves, and that’s the best metaphor. I can think to say to describe it. It’s one wave comes in crashes on the shore and leaves its imprint on the sand and the beach and then it recedes and then another wave comes along crashes into shore wipes out those impressions [00:01:34] and leaves its own impression for it then to recede again and have another to come along and this happens in perpetuity. If you go back to the beginning of known philosophy or the most famous philosopher Socrates, he actually didn’t write down a single word. It was all there was written down by a student’s, most notably is Plato, and then Plato was his student, Socrates student or his disciple, and then Plato turned and had a student and [00:02:04] his most famous student was Aristotle. So, what Plato and Socrates thought was right Aristotle totally rejected. So, Plato was the first wave and then Aristotle comes along with the second wave basically rejecting almost everything that Socrates and Plato said. This went along for a while and reason went underground and during the Middle Ages or dark ages. But Aristotelian thought [00:02:34] was kept alive by a few Arabic philosophers until it was really brought back up into light by St. Thomas Aquinas and when he brought it back it ushered in the Renaissance and then the Age of Enlightenment, but after that time came in the modern era philosophy and it was that was the beginning of the rejection of the Aristotelian thought philosophers such as Hagel and Immanuel Kant and later Karl Marx totally rejected Aristotle. [00:03:04] So that was another wave come along wiping out Aristotle. So, how does this all involve into participation trophies? Well, we need to also do a little bit of background on current modern history. A little personal history, my grandfather was born in 1900 and he for he got to be 14 years old, he  experienced the first world war and [00:03:34] in 1917 when the first war ended he immigrated into this country, but at that same time you got the rise of Communism in what would be Soviet Russia and then shortly thereafter was the Great Depression after the Great Depression comes the rise of Fascism and Nazism in Germany and fascism in Italy, which then led to World War II. Now, if we think about it the people who live during my grandfather’s time, we’re lived in a [00:04:04] very special time and it created a certain Ethos, a certain culture, and that culture was tough, authoritarian, winner-take-all, you had to live by the rules. So that sort of influenced that culture and then how they raise their kids. Another good example of modern times, if we think about it the 1950s was a very strict Christian almost authoritarian era and [00:04:34] if you think about their the television shows like Leave it to Beaver or The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, everything was all problems are solved in a half an hour in a neat package and even the parents, the husband and wife weren’t even allowed to sleep in the same bed. And this philosophical wave caused thus what would the late 60s cause the sexual Revolution that was rejection of the [00:05:04] 1950s. So, one wave again wiping out another wave. Well, my father was raised by the that authoritarian ethos and that’s how he raised me. That’s how we raised Our Generation and then Generation X comes along and rejects that totally it’s more of a kinder and gentler parenting. It also led to helicopter parenting and a couple other things but also that rejection brought about [00:05:34] the participation trophy culture. Now, instead of winner take it all instead of it’s the hard-cold reality of you made lose. Now you get rewarded for just showing up. Now, I’ve done my little introduction. What do you think about the participation trophies?

Jerry: Well, obviously being raised by the same father Yes, it was strict and you didn’t get a trophy for second place and matter of fact, we want a couple runner up trophies for playing hockey. Did it mattered we even [00:06:04] keep them? So just into trouble for showing up, no, but in today’s culture you are correct. They’re trying to teach the kids that they just show up and give them a trophy for their effort, it’ll motivate them more to a play participate get more into it and a it says it gives them better grades because they’re actually rejecting what we just said that because we’re all coaches always told us, this is life guys, you know, when you lose all these close games like Duke last night with Michigan State that’s life doesn’t always go your [00:06:34] way. They’re saying the exact opposite

DJ: According to the participation trophy, Duke should be rewarded for losing.

Jerry: Well, yes, correct is to show just for coming out there and playing it for their effort. It’s not about winning or losing its effort and they are saying it’s in small children, you’ll five-year-old’s after they should and they don’t get into it when it should stop but they’re just saying it’s for the young children to develop their minds and their discipline and getting good grades and they use the grades all the time the keep on saying that.

DJ: well, I think it’s a rejection of discipline because you need to be disciplined [00:07:04] in order to accept losing. I think is an absolute rejection of disciplinary methods but I’m glad you brought up second place trophy is because I think that was the bud of what brought in the participation trophies…the consolation prizes

Jerry: silver and bronze medal

DJ: not so much that, just you get a consolation prize for not winning. And that was the very beginning I think of the participation trophy because then you would get a prize for not winning. But at [00:07:34] least second or third did get a prize and the rest didn’t, now, everybody gets a prize

Jerry: then it went to fourth place you get a ribbon or what have you

DJ: That’s my point

Jerry: Correct. But again, it goes back to where now James Harrison, you know who he is.

DJ: Yeah, a Pittsburgh Steeler linebacker

Jerry:  tough guy awesome football player won a couple of Super Bowls play. I think 12 Seasons thing is fourth grade his two sons put played in the league. They came in fourth place they got trophy. He made them give them back. [00:08:04] You’re not going to be awarded for losing flat out those the quote was “Your trophy shelfs will stay bear until you come back with a victory.” Now, they’re literally making fun of James Harrison in this article for that parenting skill. Now this guy actually brings up and goes a bit personal with Harrison about him, but with it with domestic violence that has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just this guy trying to I think diverted the situation that Harrison’s right. He’s bringing his kids up correct that you know, you were awarded for winning whether it be division [00:08:34] MVP the top player top team.

DJ: Harrison did that, I think he posted on Instagram but Kurt Warner, who is a former NFL Super Bowl champ, agree with him. He posted that “Don’t know where you stand by him fully with Harrison 1992 on the participation trophy. They don’t like kids past classes for just showing up.” So, it’s not just Harrison. It’s other NFL players that agree with him.

Jerry: Well this article here is basically, now, he’s also using Harrison [00:09:04] That he played 12 years and only won two super bowls with ten years. He had a losing season yet did not give his money back for those 10 seasons when he did not win

DJ: that presupposes or assumes, he’s getting paid to win. He’s not getting paid to win. He’s getting paid to play football never, ever does the contract say, “You must win,” it says you come out when you play football so that that assumes something that’s not really there.

Jerry: I have the text here. Apparently, he saw nothing wrong with collecting his reward for failure during that decade of [00:09:34] football without a championship.

DJ: Once again, he wasn’t rewarded for failure. He was paid, if you want to call it rewarded, for playing the game. No one…you can’t expect to win. You can’t be paid to win because you know, what, if you got paid the win, everyone on the Detroit Lions we be broke, they would never be getting paid.

Jerry: again, yes, it’s a but that would go back to just participating think about the actual salaries how much effort would they give everyone in the NFL or any professional leagues got a trophy just for coming out.

DJ: they won’t give an effort. [00:10:04] No, they wouldn’t and I think it reinforces a bad example because it basically says you don’t have to give an effort to achieve anything in life. It’s automatically going to be there for you.

Jerry: Well things have also changed when it comes to when you go to these youth games, especially hockey, well with hockey and football, these parents, they take it seriously more seriously

DJ: I think baseball, too

Jerry: then the kids to where they’re actually getting in brawls and fights over missed calls over. I’ve literally heard one person say [00:10:34] I texted the coach after a game, “I’m not driving my kid 25 miles to play three minutes. Does it three minutes in the whole hockey game?” I guess the kid got benched. So that was his way of telling the coach, I’m not bringing my son. He’s not going to play so that the parents take it to where they think they know better and they actually again go to a participation trophy that just because they show up, they have to play.

DJ: Well I question then who is a child playing for is he playing for?

Jerry: Travel team

[00:11:04] DJ: No, that’s not what I meant. There’s the parent vicariously living through the child or as a child playing for himself because he wants to play? Because if they’re if they only care about whether they win or lose or not, whether they play or not, it’s then I think it’s the parent that is vicariously living through the child. If the child wants to play and wants to participate even if it is only three minutes let them participate for three minutes.

Jerry: So, is that what the parents are trying to get that trophy through their children?

DJ: Well, I think the whole participation [00:11:34] trophy notion is for the parents. It’s not for the kids. It’s to make the parents feel good.

Jerry: Well again, but haven’t we raised this generation of children to what’s the word I’m looking for, expect entitlement that they’re entitled to something for their effort.

DJ: I think that is the problem with participation trophies. It leaves a sense of entitlement that they are entitled to something when they don’t earn it, but no offense, but look at the Millennials today. They come into the workforce. Thinking they should be the CEO immediately. They [00:12:04] should get a promotion every single year that’s automatically given to them that is what is the result, the effect of the cause of participation trophies

Jerry: or a direct product of

DJ: or cause and effect, correct?

Jerry: What we’ll how would you describe what is a partition a participation trophy then?

DJ: if you were to you get rewarded, it doesn’t necessarily need to be a trophy, it can be just a ribbon, but you get rewarded just for showing up and the problem with that is the child that works hard that wants to play plays hard does his best to improve is [00:12:34] equivalent to the child that’s out in right field picking clovers or looking up at the sky not paying attention to the game whatsoever

Jerry: not willing to work harder to get better

DJ: not caring. One cares and one doesn’t and they both get rewarded equally.

Jerry: See, that’s how the and that’s where the kids that actually work and they get all upset and there’s the tension comes in and they start to resent those players, the kids in right field, the ones that always get picked last because they’re actually getting the same reward for their effort. [00:13:04] Those guys are out there busting their butts shown up to practice early leaving late and they’re getting the same thing as a kid who doesn’t even care. So why should they show up?

DJ: Why should you work harder? Yeah, and that goes also into the workforce. Why should you work harder because someone else is going to get rewarded for work that they didn’t do?

Jerry: but at the end of the day, why is it bad to have a participation trophy?

DJ: Well, I think I just said it. It’s because it’s it leaves a sense of entitlement and leaves a child thinking [00:13:34] that they’re going to be rewarded regardless of effort.

Jerry: But at a young we’re talking five years old when they first start playing this sport. Should we be worried about their feelings and rewarding for their effort and not really about winning and losing? We’re talking at a young age and they first start playing the game.

DJ: Feelings, it always sucks to lose. So…

Jerry: Exactly

DJ: therefore, what you’re basically saying is don’t play the game don’t compete because you can’t win every single time. You’re going to lose some time in your life and it’s going to suck [00:14:04] you need to deal with it. That’s basically what you’re saying is don’t, and I’m against this to, not keeping score and that’s what leads to you don’t keep score because there are no winners or losers there. So, the no feelings are hurt. When that’s not reality. Reality is as soon as those kids grow up and I don’t care if you say 10 years old or even into the workforce. Their feelings are going to get hurt

Jerry: At some point

DJ: and they would be better prepared for it if their feelings had gotten hurt earlier and they you will learn to deal with it. Then have it happen to them when they’re [00:14:34] young adults and then they could get totally psychologically messed up.

Ryan: I think too, with like when it becomes like an object, like let’s say it is a participation trophy like a physical thing because yeah, you know, if you lose you can still like give some positive reinforcement to do better next time or just be like, you know, just keep at it but it’s like once it’s there’s an object involved where yeah that winning team or winning whatever gets something but then everybody gets it kind of just [00:15:04]

DJ: diminishes it

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Jerry: It dilutes it to where it’s…

Ryan: Totally

Jerry:  worth the same thing to one team that got it because the other ones that didn’t get it and that like well Duke last night. They’re hurting you see in their eyes, you know, they lost something they wouldn’t feel that way of every everybody, you know, in that tournament got a trophy.

DJ: I agree, I would be hurt to I when I when I lost especially big games like that last night it did hurt it stung, but you get over it you learn from that.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry: No, I agree. But the that [00:15:34] guess what now, whatever way that you’re talking about now, it isn’t about earning it. It’s about their feelings.

DJ: That’s a kinder gentler general parenting

Jerry: that if they don’t want to hurt their feelings, they want them to be rewarded just for the effort to wear it motivates them just to get up and go to the sport. Again, I’m going back to but at first, I want to open it up. They’re saying they have studies that their grades improve when they’re just literally given a reward for just showing up in a little soccer league with this was done. It was a five-year-old soccer league. That’s why I bring up early childhood development.

DJ: Well, let’s [00:16:04] move that then into the academic field. If you didn’t get an A-B-C-D or any way whatsoever, would that make them work harder the everyone gets a passing grade no matter what would they try? Because that is equivalent to our participation trophy.

Jerry: I would think no

DJ: you just show up and you get the grade. So what incentive is there if you do it equally like you do in the participation trophy to Academia? You would lead a generation of failures because no one would care anymore. There’d be no reason to try harder anymore.

Jerry: I [00:16:34] think it’s also a really kind of parenting. Our parents were hard on us to where now we kind of like protect our children. We kind of like do things for them. We don’t want them to wear our parents like, you know, get out there, you know, you got to learn and also called hard cold hard world out there. Get out golf tour now it’s you know, we’re coddling protecting them.

DJ: Generation X’s, which incidentally is a stupid name. Where it’s supposed to be lack of identity, but we’re identifying the very generation now so it’s a very [00:17:04] stupid name, but that’s beside the point. The problem is with the generation Xers is that parenting, they once again a rejecting the previous philosophical way of parenting and the bringing in I’m rejecting everything about the authoritarian type winner take all right or wrong philosophy and they’re totally going the exact opposite and they…you can always break it down to a Rush song, “Time After time we lose sight of the way our causes can’t see their effects” and that’s exactly what’s happening. They’re trying to do it to be nice and [00:17:34] the effect is it’s hurting their kids.

Jerry: Well, I can tell you now in the workforce. Just when I deal with having to work with some of the people there is an entitlement now to where and we have a couple, there are some mothers, daughters, aunts, nieces that are working there and they very protective, you know, I love of their siblings whatever nieces, so, they didn’t break the rules. snow must have an argue for them towards not them going out then turning it on their own. They almost want to do their work for them. Is that a result of you know, being rewarded just [00:18:04] for showing up?

DJ: its coddling, is what it is. The result of coddling.

Jerry: is the result of coddling kind of the result of participation trophies?

DJ: It is. When you, Ryan, when you do your MMA style fighting would you want to be rewarded if you lost?

Ryan: No, because I mean, you’re just not going anywhere, you know, it’s that’s the kind of why I like that sport. I mean it’s with any sport but it’s just like it’s just an easy thing to understand of winning and losing you know, they’re obviously [00:18:34] are decisions and stuff that be kind of, you know,

DJ: controversial

Ryan: controversial, Yeah, but it’s still there’s two people one’s going to be better than the other and that’s like how it comes down. So it’s like if you can’t wrap your head around that and figure out what you did wrong. Or if you won, you know, it’s like it’s just kind of simple as it gets

DJ: there’s a lesson even in the winning

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: because, at least in my point of view, because you still even when you win you’ve made mistakes.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: and you should learn from those mistakes and to be even better. So there’s a lesson also the winning but losing [00:19:04] it’s even a better lesson because you don’t really grow unless you make mistakes

Ryan: and it never feels good to lose and stuff at anything, but it’s like I kind of put this with games and stuff but you know, it’s like playing on my god mode like you can you’ll get bored of it so soon. So, if you’re like competing with teams that just suck or if you’re just going to steamroll them every time like you just get burnt out from whatever game you’re playing.

DJ: It’s no longer fun.

Ryan: Yeah

DJ; Or interesting.

Ryan: Yeah, so

DJ: totally [00:19:34] agree with you totally agree and that’s what participation trophy

Ryan: exactly

DJ: cause

Ryan: that could do that,

Jerry: Even back in the NFL from the Championships. I’m just including the Super Bowls, how many times the team go and lose the first time and then go back a second time and then win

DJ: because they learned a lesson they got from their mistakes and got better

Jerry:  they have set because they lost it hurts

DJ: and that losing was motivation to get better

Jerry: and then yes, they came back and they were madder than ever and concentrated focus and won. In the repeating here what happens get a little less [00:20:04] focused. The guy you beat last year is not coming back.

DJ: That’s why it’s always hard to repeat because you lose your focus and

Jerry: exactly

DJ: get a little bit of a big head and think you’re everything and next thing you know, the next team comes along and takes you over

Jerry: but I finally found this the part of this article here that was bringing in early on how it affects them in their later years going to college emphasizing participation over results early on will bring far more kids into the game, which is true. And what’s more important about that studies overwhelming show that [00:20:34] participation in sports is linked to better grades, lower Dropout rates, particularly among girls, an increased desire to attend college, but if they don’t participate when they’re young, they’re less likely to participate when they’re older.

DJ: You don’t need a participation trophy to get someone to participate. You can still participate and we did it when we were younger.

Jerry: Yeah, I get it. I agree. They’re using the science of a study again. It started younger five-year-old [00:21:04] soccer, you know how they have better grades. And again, I just read it. I don’t agree with it, but it’s almost sort of thing the psychobabble to whereas coddling the kids.

DJ: Okay, I have something about Early Education. This is from education news in January 13 2013. It’s entitled how the participation trophy culture has soften our kids. Today’s students from kindergarteners to high school seniors are losing out as physical education component of their education is being worked on in the labs of political [00:21:34] correctness. What is happening or rather not happening can be seen in school gymnasiums and on School Playgrounds Across America. The prevailing trend is that PC classes and recesses are becoming less about students need for physical activity and more about the educational Elites top-down pursuit of fairness agenda and a heightened call for social responsibility. For example, not long-ago dodgeball was a schoolyard bully sent into permanent timeout by several States in 2001 [00:22:04] the most iconic of all-time school activities was deemed by many experts as cruel, dangerous and counterproductive. They said the game destroyed self-esteem and created an unfair hierarchy on the playground which trickled into the halls and loomed over the classrooms. The spin continued as they asked what are the physical benefits when a less skilled and less athletic of the lot are always eliminated first and as a result forced to sit idly on the sidelines. Among the experts and their like-minded peers nurture [00:22:34] and not nature was and is still central to their philosophy. It is clear no one wants to see a child get injured by the hand of a fellow classmate, but for most children attempting to avoid a large red ball hurling at them should be instinctive. Moreover, the game is simple and an endless attempt to manipulate the rules, so as to promote equal results cannot always protect a child from a negative experience or guarantee a fun time. In fact, what many of these experts fail to accept is [00:23:04] that their inability to control outcomes reveals their frustration with a basic human nature because metaphorically speaking in Dodgeball and in life getting hit is inevitable. The ball stings in the experience is painful, you may be out of the game for a bit but the next round there lies opportunity and that’s the point losing can help you to learn a lesson to win.

Jerry: So, they’re there but they’re saying dodgeball was to be eliminated because it was

DJ: this actually happened in 2001. They started [00:23:34] in a lot of schools are in states around the country started outlining doctor did not know that there are still think it goes on today where you are not allowed to play dodgeball

Jerry: because it affects your self-esteem because they get out they get knocked out first.

Ryan: Oh, it’s like that. Like the most basic sporty like you get hit like you’re out, you know,

DJ: it’s like true and it’s to me growing up, it was one of the easiest to play

Jerry: It was one of the most fun to play too, you got out of the way and you got hit you got mad the next game like it said you went out and you learned that you run this time or you catch the ball.

DJ: Once [00:24:04] again, it wasn’t the kids that cause this. It was a Generation X parents

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: who settled that touchy feeling that doesn’t feel good or it’s not good to knock someone out.

Jerry: So, was it them who got knocked out?

DJ: So, I think it all…it’s kind of the results of and when, remember where we’re in childhood recess out in

Jerry: yeah

DJ: lunchtime and you’d pick teams.

Jerry: Yeah,

DJ: and someone always got picked last that’s what happens.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ:  there were trying to feel good for those people and that got picked last, that just happens

Ryan: Yeah

DJ: the little kids still played. Even [00:24:34] though you got picked last you still got picked. You still got on the team. I’m talking about recess. Now, you still played

Jerry: and during recess you’d have the class Misfits tackle the star running back on blacktop.

DJ: Yes, so but the point is, yeah, someone’s going to get picked last. Someone is going to fail but they still get to participate. You still don’t need to be forced to have a trophy to participate and it takes the fun out of the game, especially when we’re talking about dodgeball. I mean, that’s a fun game. And then now what do you [00:25:04] mean all physical activity is bad because you might lose what’s the point of PE then?

Ryan: Yeah, it’s true and you want to have like Rivals and stuff because that’s like if you take even football and you know Sports now, like everyone wants to watch the teams that you know compete the best with each other, you know,

Jerry: That’s the heart of competition

Ryan: exactly

Jerry: both of you brought up the operative word, compete. In competition what they’re trying what participate trophy does is try to erase competition. We have no score in the winners. There’s no competition everyone [00:25:34] thinks competition. Or not everyone. A lot of people think competition is the enemy and in fact is metaphorically speaking if you’re in a race, and you can’t you’re running and you someone’s your it’s just you and someone else and they’re 10 feet behind you. Are you going to run? This hard is when the right next to you and you’ve  got to push to get to the heart to the to the Finish Line first, which of those two scenarios are you going to be a better competitor? When you have another competitor with you next to you just as good as you

Jerry: when they are on your [00:26:04] heels

DJ: when you’re competing. The point is competition makes us better. It doesn’t hurt us. It doesn’t make us worse. Yes, you’re going to lose that is inevitable as life, but it makes us better.

Jerry: Yeah, and I also think it makes it to the kids how to prepare for those moments in life when they get smacked down. They can be hard to accept that. You know, someone said no, they lost finally or they weren’t rewarded for their efforts just to try they showed up today for work so they should get something else

DJ: when we were kids and played baseball. [00:26:34] When were we were awarded to go the Dairy Queen was when we lost when we won

Jerry: only Victory

DJ: only when we won and that was an incentive. Even though wasn’t a trophy that that meant something so we had to win to do it. And even though we missed out on that ice cream at the end. We didn’t become worse people because of it. We tried better the next time to get that ice cream and win so

Jerry: I think sometimes the coach is want us to lose because they’re the pocketbooks and

DJ: that’s a different issue, but I would agree but [00:27:04] the point is the point that was in a way that ice cream was a trophy

Jerry: absolutely, it was a reward for winning the game and was even better with you on the whole season districts playoffs is your more pizza parties afterwards.

DJ: So, you talk about the coach’s pocketbook. Today’s world would be you get it you get an ice cream no matter what so that that coach is going to be paying for ice cream for everybody, every single game so there’s nothing left in his pocketbook according to today’s world.

Jerry: It didn’t follow his game plan. So, I guess the only way it’s [00:27:34] going to be that next wave to come and reject it because you know, how they you can overcome the entitlement that’s going to be a tough call but participation trophies are growing in momentum. That’s not going away

DJ: I think that rejections already happened you brought up James Harrison and I brought up Kurt Warner. I think it’s already happening you and I reject it. I assume Ryan rejects it. I think it’s happening. The problem is this is philosophical it’s political correctness. I said it before when you are politically correct, you’re taking the fourth level of philosophy and moving [00:28:04] it up to the number one level and in order to be politically correct, that becomes primary and there is the problem. I would rather be philosophically correct then politically correct you what would you just think in terms of what is derived from another politics is not the end all be all. In fact, it’s derived from your ethics good and what’s right and wrong determines what is political and all that matters to them is the politics, number one,

Jerry: the whole PC movement is just that, feelings. Not being so blunt [00:28:34] to one person.

DJ: I blame this on George H W Bush remember when he said we’re going to be a Kinder gentler nation?  That was it and they took their cue and they ran with it because that’s what this is a Kinder gentler parenting. So, we don’t want to spank our kids now and I know you probably didn’t get punished. Remember we got spanked

Jerry: correct

DJ: today you spank your child, you’re going to go to jail,

Ryan: you know you can’t hit your kid.

DJ: Yeah even worse.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jerry: Yeah Social [00:29:04] Services shows up, yep

DJ: this is all the philosophical wave that needs to be rejected and

Ryan: sorry. Have you seen the documentary Trophy Kids? I think that’s what it’s called.

DJ: Was that the HBO one if it wasn’t the no, I haven’t seen it.

Ryan: It’s Mark Bell. I think he’s the guy that did it and he’s done like a few and it’s kind of like what we’re talking about here, but more or less just like I think maybe this is why it’s come to this because they kind of focus on a few families [00:29:34] and it’s like these kids that are playing these Sports and their parents or just like just super strict on them, you know, like they got to train all the in they’re like not even teenagers yet, and it’s just like this documentary kind of focusing in like is this right is this wrong? Like and it’s I think this might have kind of stuff like that

Jerry: I think I’ve seen something like that. Where you’re talking that they’re really putting these kids through these academies for baseball.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jerry: at seven, six start out six seven years old

Ryan: they’re training just like all [00:30:04] day. Yeah, like they’re just being groomed. Obviously.

Jerry: That’s what it is. They’re being groomed for the college recruitment

Ryan: and whatnots. Yeah,

Jerry: the football kids are even going to these Hardball and Nick Saban at ten years old.

Ryan:

Yeah. It’s like crazy

DJ: Ostensively, I think it could be for college or to groom them for college or the NFL but I really think it’s the parents living vicariously through their kids. They want it

Ryan: yeah that’s kind of the underlying thing and it’s like, you know, whenever the kid does something wrong and it’s like showing like kind [00:30:34] of I guess both sides of that where it’s just like they do bad like

Jerry: where their parents are super strict on them, super. I mean failure isn’t an option and they get punished to the core

DJ: we’re talking exact opposite I was talking about

Ryan: but this is where I’m just saying, I think people that are like this shouldn’t be how it is because I’m not going to stress on my kid like that

Jerry: It’s too hard.

Ryan: Yes,

Jerry: but that was the opposite thing was that there was no a feelings there was no it was all about results and that they were more punished than they were rewarded because it [00:31:04] was hard because he had a young age. I think I was a figure skater that was in there was a young football player and these again, both of them had skills above any other kids once they were recognized that the parents took them and just start grooming him because like what you said, they wanted the other kids to all those big scholarships, but the big payday in the sports so they can be taken care of so Dad can quit the…I mean I don’t know how many times I think I heard that and one of those things about I want to retire and you are I think I heard that you are my retirements.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry: That one kid [00:31:34] was a football player it was again; it was living through the kid. That’s what it was

DJ: we’ve talked about the two extremes, of those two extremes. Honestly, I’d rather have the most disciplinarian, I wouldn’t say that I would do

Ryan: that is, what we just talked about his beyond it, but it’s like

Jerry: it made them better.

Ryan: Yeah,

Jerry: he’s good to go up. They had skill and they were looking

DJ: to transfer that over into Academia. Like we’re talking earlier, a while back there was someone called a tiger mom who would really force her kid to do good in school play piano hours on [00:32:04] time and it made her really good and made her excel at Academia. It worked. I’m not saying once again, it’s the extreme and I would do that but it worked it got her to be a better a better student. So, I mean we’re talking two extremes here

Jerry: correct

DJ: of the two I would go with the more disciplinarian.

Jerry: Well, they’re going to be better off. Yeah, because they’ll take no skill to wear the exact opposite these participation trophies. They’re just being when water for shown up and the do anything to of the other one [00:32:34] we’re talking about those kids had to work.

Ryan: Yeah.

DJ: I mean one question is then when those kids grow up or they’re going to reject that philosophy and you turn the light on.

Ryan: I think that’s what we’re kind of talking about too, they obviously can’t talk to him tell then but it’s like this going to be good for that. It could be and you know something maybe you can’t, you know,

DJ: That’s that philosophical wave I’m talking about another that when those kids grow up. I bet you they’re going to ride a wave that’s going to crash ashore and say no we will wipe out everything that generation, my parents did and do a totally different. I don’t want to be treated that way.

Jerry: They’ll be some that’ll say [00:33:04] it worked for me. My dad did this to me? I’ll do it to you then the others to where I’m not going to do that to my kid.

Ryan: Yeah.

DJ: Yes

Ryan: well and to have like the option because some I think what they focus on that movie like to is like some of the kids didn’t even want to be doing this and it’s like a had no that’s like a whole other

DJ: if you’re forcing your kid and they don’t want to they’re not into it. Then I’m not for that.

Jerry: They won’t succeed and they didn’t

DJ: if they’re into it if they’re into it. Then I can understand it at least of the scent that the end being that they’re going to get going for the scholarship [00:33:34] or the Collegiate scholarship in the NFL. But if they’re not into it and you’re forcing them then I know it’s the parents doing it for themselves not doing it for that.

Ryan: Yeah

Jerry:  I think a couple was baseball where the kid he had the skill. He just didn’t want to play baseball but the parents were no I think one of the coaches told them he’s you know, he could be the next Mike Trout the five-star athlete and baseball which is rare. The kid doesn’t like baseball and yet they just made him gone again. His skill alone was getting them through but he hated it just hated [00:34:04]

DJ: part of succeeding his passion and if that child did not like baseball, there’s no passion there. He wants it. He he may win a game or two, but he won’t further his career on it. All of it would be a waste of effort because no passion. He’ll end up quitting.

Jerry: well walk away and just discussed how many times we’ve seen that in hockey where kids are just great and they just said hey, I’m sick of my dad’s all over me and just I’m done walked away from it and they were just had skill that we will you and I wanted to have him couldn’t figure out why wouldn’t you play? They just hated it that much [00:34:34] because of how they were pushed into it, you know forced, you know, the score that winning goal.

DJ: This is, I guess the topic isn’t necessarily participation trophies as bad parenting

Ryan: Yeah, but…

Jerry: which kind of leads to where you know, you go into the participation trophy because you don’t want to be that bad parent you want to reward the kid just for trying

Ryan: and yeah, there’s that too because if these people are, you know, up-and-coming athletes if they had participation trophies if that was like was implemented when they were, you know, perfecting [00:35:04] their skills. It’s like would that have further them to become like have this become a career and stuff like that. Maybe they would just plateaued you know, and not

DJ: exactly

Ryan: push themselves

Jerry: correct.

DJ: How about

Ryan: the balance?

DJ: Did you get any participation trophies growing up?

Ryan: I might have in some way but it wasn’t really like

DJ: well then, the way you save might have it somewhere that tells me you didn’t hang on to him. He didn’t care about him that much see I’m well, I only one in baseball going on one Championship one [00:35:34] and I cherish that trophy because we won it wasn’t just like you just said I doesn’t matter just thrown away. So, I’m wondering if those participation even really mean something. How many of those kids actually kept them and actually cared about them because I think the kids aren’t stupid. They know they got it for doing nothing. So it’s not going to mean as much to them

Jerry: I think the younger kids a five year old’s, they you know liked it.

DJ: Well they liked it then, I’ll talking about later. Later in life. It was just it doesn’t really matter like throw it away missing.

Ryan: Yeah. [00:36:04] Well and I got did like martial arts stuff and like the thing that I felt different that it’s more or less how you might want to look at it is just like I was proud even if I didn’t get the gold, but if I got even someone like I was happy for it, like obviously at one of the top one but it’s like, you know, you obviously just kind of have to look at what you did wrong and do better and it’s just like doing it was fun. You know, I mean,

DJ: absolutely

Ryan: I think that’s just what

DJ: that’s the key.

Ryan: That’s what you got [00:36:34] to be like teaching kids and stuff like that because you know didn’t deter me to be able you screw this, I’m not doing this anymore. It’s, you know, try to get it next time.

Jerry: Work harder, yeah.

DJ: It’s achievement. I mean you talk about martial arts. When I did martial arts. I was more of an adult when I did but still it was going through all the incremental belt colors.

Ryan: Yeah,

DJ: I felt like I achieved every single time that I got one. I was getting better and better it wasn’t necessarily the trophy of the belt. It was the achievement of it that I was I was learning. I was becoming better able to defend myself

Ryan: and [00:37:04] you know, you see other people that could do something that you can you know, I mean, there’s always that it’s just like, you know, and you want to drive her drive.

DJ: Yeah precisely

Jerry: speaking of that how many tests that we go to where we walk up and look at black belts and say wow, that guy’s good that guy Goods. He sucks. How do you get his belt?

Ryan: {laughs}

Jerry: How’d you do that?

Ryan: They are

DJ: that’s participation belt

Ryan: yeah, that’s there is that I’ve

Jerry: self-esteem kind of thing, you know, we heard that before.

DJ: Oh, absolutely

Jerry: they’re given the belts for self(esteem), even the adults I get the kids but even the adults from the guy who could barely tie his you [00:37:34] know belt because he was a little bit too big.

Ryan: That’s not good

DJ: they didn’t deserve it. They shouldn’t have gotten I mean we’re talking about justice here in philosophy, just as means they shouldn’t have received it. They should have just waited until they actually could achieve that skill that level of skill and then gotten it. Or received it

Jerry: Well, I think it feels safe to our society realizes that participation trophies are not helping it’s like going to get worse because it’s leaning toward to where more and more and more. They will just you know rewards [00:38:04] you for your effort winning and losing doesn’t matter and that’s a quote

DJ: that’s sad.

Jerry: It is very sad,

DJ: and I think that’s what’s going to hurt is because the kids aren’t going to…you wouldn’t lose willing to lose his about life you’re going lose a lot more than win.

Jerry: World War I and World War II did it count did it matter?

DJ: Yes, and that’s why I it’s why I brought the whole thing up about my grandpa is that think about their ethos, what was in their culture? I mean going through those the Great Depression, World War I, World War II, they had [00:38:34] to be men they had his win or you die. It was a matter of survival and that was a part of their time

Jerry: correct

DJ: and now we don’t have those wars

Jerry:  people

DJ: we don’t have those hard times

Jerry: people will say that was their culture that was a different time not this time. It’s different. We’re more modern to her back in World War I that wasn’t technology advanced.

DJ: I think we’ve been coddled and lazy, I really think are the Next Generation

Jerry: as you advance. We have absolutely [00:39:04]

DJ: ask yourself this, the Millennials today if they got thrown into World War II, would they have been able to stepped-up like those guys did back in, would they be able to win that war based on the helicopter parenting and the participation trophies. I don’t think the effort would be there.

Ryan: No, it wouldn’t look good.

DJ: I think we would lose

Jerry: they they’re going to want their video controllers or their cell phones and their I’m thinking about defend the country.

DJ: The point is it had to happen and they were products of their time and now kids are these kids are [00:39:34] products of their parents part of the parents time because they were rejecting that authoritarian type.

Jerry: I believe being set up for failure, but that’s just me.

DJ: I totally agree.

Ryan: I agree too. Do I get a trophy?

DJ: (laughs)

Jerry: (laughs) yeah

DJ: So I guess if we’re going to end this thing with talk about the philosophical waves, the last question I’ll leave is when is the next philosophical wave going to bring me closer to everyone else in this world? Because right now I think [00:40:04] I am

Jerry: getting farther apart

DJ: leagues apart from everyone else. Anyways, you’re listening to The Grand Design podcast. You can get in touch with us at GrandDesignsPodcast.com. Our email is GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. Instagram is @GrandDesignsPodcast and follow us on Twitter @GrandDesignsPodcast,  This is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

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