Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 24 – NFL Hold Outs Transcript

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Jerry:                                     00:20                     This is Grand Designs Podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand, where we link the chains of reason of sports politics and culture.

DJ:                                          00:30                     Thank you so much for taking the time to tune into the grand design podcast on DJ Grand. And I’m here with my brother Jerry.

Jerry:                                     00:43                     Hello.

DJ:                                          00:44                     I first want to tell you how to get a hold of us. Our website is Our email is GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. You can follow us on Twitter at GrandDesignsPod and Instagram is GrandDesignspodcast. Today’s topic we’re going to be talking about holdouts from the NFL. Are they ethical? Should they happen?

Jerry:                                     01:08                     Well, we have to start with the owners. What’s their side? Obviously what’s the player’s side? Because those are the two sides, uh, the owners and where’s it start from? But the owners, obviously they have their profits and they have a profit margin and they can only pay so many star players, so much money. But as we go through these years, uh, Le’Veon Bell last year holding out has pretty much changed the format of how these players are trying to get more money. And the question that I want to ask is should the iron of their contract? For example, is Ezekiel Elliott right now is holding out, he signed a five year deal. He’s on year four right now. He’s got two years left. Should he honor that contract?

DJ:                                          01:49                     I think he should. If you sign a contract you should do it for the length of the contract. I don’t think the holding out is necessary. I get, I understand (it and) we’ll get into the reasons why they do it but I still don’t think that is more compelling than your word. You signed a contract.

Jerry:                                     02:04                     But if we go back years, decades, even since we were kids watching football, it was when we were little kids you didn’t hear much of this. But as the NFL made more money, you start hearing players wanting to renegotiate before the contract runs out and now it is just gotten to a ridiculous situation to where, why even have the contracts? Cause they’re going to break them or they’re going to hold out. Melvin Gordon, he’s doing a complete 180 on the chargers and he’s holding out. So it’s really what has caused this? What’s the reason for all these players doing this all of a sudden now?

DJ:                                          02:35                     Well, part of it is the fact that the nature of the business, it’s a rough league and usually, it’s three years, four years, five years tops, average now. I’m not talking about Tom Brady. What? I’m running backs, they get hurt a lot. I mean it wears and tears on their body and I get that they, because of that, they want to make as much as they can, but that doesn’t make it right to go against your word.

Jerry:                                     03:01                     You said correctly. They want their money and they want an asap. They want, they want to take care of their families and their futures and their kids beyond. The problem is again, like you said, they should honor that contract, but they don’t. And then you have two players right now. Let’s go back last year because two things really changed the format of how these contracts are now dealt with. In the uh, they were earthquake changing and that was Le’Veon Bell and Todd Gurley. Le’Veon Bell basically told the Steelers, hey I’m not coming back until you negotiate. And I think they thought it was blocked him cause he did this several years before. But he always came back in the last (days) of training camp cause they thought not many veterans like training camp but this, this year and he sat the whole season. Now you have players…

DJ:                                          03:42                     Last year

Jerry:                                     03:42                     I’m sorry. Yes, last year now last year Todd Gurley also signed a $57 million contract. That just went ditch it all through the whole shape. Now Ezekiel Elliott, he wants to top that before he gets because he’s on year three. If the average four years there is a chance he may get injured and never see that money. So that’s why he wants that money now.

DJ:                                          04:05                     Oh, I get that. They want (it) because they’re getting injured. They’re getting injured (and) that they want to take get it while they can. I totally understand that. But sign that contract that, so you get it while you can in that first year.

Jerry:                                     04:19                     They’re not going to do that, especially the NFL because if we go back and I call it the Matthew Stafford Syndrome, but it’s really, that’s not right. I shouldn’t write to Matthew cause he was just the last quarterback to come out when he just got an outrageous contract without even throwing one pass, not playing one down. And a lot of the veterans just had a problem cause this was happening year after year. The number one draft pick number two and three, they’re making more than some of the veterans. So the NFL wasn’t, not the NFL decided but they negotiated and the union collectively bargained that there was a new rookie contract system and the system basically says, I don’t know if it’s a five year contract or a six year contract and yes, I don’t know what the cap may be, but Ezekiel Elliott makes $6.5 million on his current rookie contract. That’s a lot of money.

DJ:                                          05:02                     That’s part of the problem. I think the length of the rookie contract is what hurts them because it holds them into for six years when really should only do it for one or two years and then renegotiate.

Jerry:                                     05:15                     Now Ezekiel Elliott has led the NFL in rushing in the first three seasons of his career, only two other people have done that and that’s Earl Campbell and James Brown, so that puts him in an elite company. Now, Todd Gurley did not do that. I don’t think Todd Gurley has been in the year this, this would be his third year if I’m not mistaken. Yes sir. Last year was year three and in the middle of his second year now and he had a five year contract, too. He then goes to sign for $57 million, 500 of which a 21 million was totally guaranteed $21,000,900. Now that just changed out Ezekiel, that was a second year. Other owners in the NFL did not like the Rams doing that because now Ezekiel Elliott a) wants to do the same thing and, and he’s going to hold out. Same thing with Melvin Gordon. We have two running back to him at the same time, but the owners want to put a limit at 57 million, which means they do not want to exceed that Todd Gurley money. Elliot had made it clear I want more than him. Now think about it. He’s done something that Todd Gurley hasn’t done. Now, Jim Brown and Earl Campbell, those were legendary backs. So when you have the negotiating and these, and this was the agent comes in, they negotiate for them and they know the NFL has got just a ton of money. They understand and where it’s available and coming from. So they’re going to set the market and that’s what happened with Gurley. He set the market, but I don’t think the owners are going to let that stand.

DJ:                                          06:34                     A part of the problem or the nature of the beast, I guess is the unions and the agents because both of them are looking out for themselves. They’re not looking out for the players and not looking out for the NFL. They say they’re looking out for the players, but no, they’re still looking out for themselves.

Jerry:                                     06:49                     Don’t think the union did running backs, and this is kind of hard to explain, but I don’t think the union did the running backs any favors and the NFL is making rules to protect the quarterbacks and those are the glory boys. They’re getting all the money, so they’re lasting. Tom Brady 20 years, a lot longer than you know, back off when Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Joe Theisman played. Again, Tom Brady’s played 20 years running backs, average three and there’s a chance that they’re walking like Earl Campbell who can’t right now. So they’re trying to get their.

DJ:                                          07:19                     Joe Namath can’t walk. He’s a quarterback.

Jerry:                                     07:22                     How many years of joining with play?

DJ:                                          07:23                     He played a lot.

Jerry:                                     07:25                     Again, but again, here we go back in Joe Namath. That was, that was back when, I guess the men played. Right now. I mean, come on, Deacon Jones. There’s some other ones, the fearsome foursome. They were out to kill quarterbacks. Those guys would’ve been kicked out of games left and right in today’s league where they’re protected. I wonder what Nameth with what had done in today’s league. Same thing with Marino. You know it’s a passing game now, and the rules are you can’t call roughing the quarterback. I’ve seen some. Pretty Weird, they came even touch (them). You might as well put flags on the quarterback. The point being is to protect in the quarterback, but not the running backs. Running backs are done in three years. So I kind of see where again, it is the, where I’m kind of baffled. $6.5 million is a lot of money. That’s what Elliott’s making. He wants 14 million a year. He wants, you know, literally to more than double that salary. Is that greed? Is that rational self-interest, greed?

DJ:                                          08:15                     Are they forced to sign a six year deal as a rookie?

Jerry:                                     08:19                     You see, I think, I don’t know. I’m not sure, but I think, there’s a length of the CBA negotiated that the, there’s a three year, five year, I think it’s five because…

DJ:                                          08:29                     And they have to sign five years. They can’t sign one or two? It must be five?

Jerry:                                     08:32                     I believe. I think that there’s, I don’t want to quote myself, I’m going to say just to guess yes, that they have to go through a five year contract because I know Gurley had a five year, but again, he re-upped to in year two.

DJ:                                          08:43                     That I think it’s part of the problem. They shouldn’t have to be forced to sign that long of a contract. Especially sense their average career is only three to four years. That takes off their, their whole, almost their whole career that I see as wrong.

Jerry:                                     08:58                     That’s where I’m saying the CBA didn’t do any favors to the running backs. Now there’s, that’s what I’m saying. This next one, not only, I mean, do they want to, the union want to break down the owners, but they’re going to hold out for the running backs, now. That you know literally, I don’t know how they’re going to word it, but the running backs are getting screwed. So now Ezekiel Elliott is holding out, Melvin Gordon is holding out. It’s just turned into this melee. How do you solve it?

DJ:                                          09:23                     I think, now this is just speculation on my part. You should use the NHL model. That’s how I would solve it. That doesn’t mean it’s right and I don’t think the agents nor the union will go for it, but you make it a one or two years, you cap it, you give them a certain level. Now that’s an X, you can negotiate between them what that would be based on the NFL revenues. So they’re not getting that short change, but that gives them the opportunity to perform for one or two years and then renegotiate their contract. Now if they’re going to hold on after one, then I would say, you can extend your rookie contract.

Jerry:                                     09:59                     I could just tell you right now, Barry Sanders comes out and does what he did his rookie year. He’s not playing the second year until he gets that.

DJ:                                          10:04                     Like I just said. Then you can then your rookie contract is extended for however long you hold out. That way, that rookie contract and stay three, four years. If you hold out two years, if you hold out then you extend it. But if you don’t then you after two years you can renegotiate and get that the money that is Ezekiel Elliott is searching.

Jerry:                                     10:23                     I’m not sure if it’s a middle ground, but if you gave them the one year then they had that one year to prove himself and they get their big money, their 26 million. If they’re good enough to get at 17 million a year. However, um, well that does all the complaint of the veterans saying this guy hasn’t played one down. He’s played one season now. So he…

DJ:                                          10:42                     It’s twofold. It also solves a problem them playing, the rookie contract being longer than it should be. So it so that way they can renegotiate earlier and don’t have to sign a six year contract and then hold out on year four. Cause the contract will be done after two, they can renegotiate it and get the money they want and at that point you can, you should be able to do it for the length that you want or you can get and then…

Jerry:                                     11:06                     But like you said earlier, the agents and they really got their hands in on this and I know they’re lobbying the union before all the contract negotiations. I think they really pushed it. They would, they like longer contracts and they also know full well that that contract is made to be broken. It will not last, especially if they exceed expectations. They’re going to go back and my client’s going to hold out and Calvin Johnson did it. I mean it’s happen(ed) all the time. It’s only gotten worse after Le’Veon Bell held out the whole season.

DJ:                                          11:34                     Just cause it happens all the time, doesn’t mean it’s justified. I mean in the real world, if you go into a corporation and you just outperform everybody your first or second year, does that mean you get to renegotiate right away and you get CEO level of compensation? I totally don’t see that as justification.

Jerry:                                     11:51                     I don’t like using the real compared to NFL cause it’s, it’s not real world. It’s just, it’s not a, it’s a kid’s game and a business at the same time. And you got the NFL making what, 14, 15 billion a year in revenue. So, I can see the players, agents, while I don’t agree with the union, I can say, I can see them saying we want half of that 14 billion, the owners get seven, we get, the players get seven. And then you’ve now got the whole thing of negotiating the contracts and this is where the agents come in and to lobby the union saying, listen, we, we liked the long-term contracts because we want our clients to be able to renegotiate (at) whatever point.

DJ:                                          12:29                     They want, the bigger contracts, so they get a bigger percentage. I think the agents are out for themselves.

Jerry:                                     12:33                     Oh, absolutely and that’s the problem. When you had the agents involved, they’re always going to be looking out for themselves included cause now they know off the bat they have no leverage on a one year contract, none whatsoever. And actually takes it out of their hand a little bit because hey your guy did bad last year. We’re not going to pay him what we paid them last year cause look at the results.

DJ:                                          12:52                     Well, the opposite of that coin, like you said, is Ezekiel Elliott did really good these last three years. He then would be able to get the big money after the one or two years. So it’s, it can work both ways.

Jerry:                                     13:02                     Do you truly, again, Elliott, Sanders, they’re there, the freaks, they’re rare talents. Can you just say one year is a good judgment that hey, that’s a one year I can pay that guy 14 million a year or should they get it approve themselves over and that’s where it comes in. Shouldn’t that guy whom suffer a couple three years that age is durable? Now we get back to the question. I know that you brought up, a running back cannot last that long, but at what point do you one year?

DJ:                                          13:27                     I think two that gives you, that lets you prove that it wasn’t just a fluke season. You do it twice, you’ve proven yourself. It doesn’t matter to me that they won’t go for it. It doesn’t matter to me if the union won’t go for it and what I’m trying to solve here is the hold out problem. I really believe the rookie hold out problem I think guys are going to hold out later because they think they get screwed later in their career.

Jerry:                                     13:49                     Antonio Brown.

DJ:                                          13:50                     But I’m talking about the rookie hold out with all of the contract, the rookie contract last too long causing like Ezekiel Elliott is a perfect example, where his rookie contract, he’s outperformed at any, he should renew it. Now, if you, if he only signed a two year contract and that was mandatory for all rookies coming in and they would be capped so that once again they can negotiate what that cap is. I’m not saying it has to be $1 million. I’m not saying it has to be $10 million. It can be negotiated with their unions and the owners, but once they establish what the given market is then they should be held to it for that one, two years and then they can renegotiate and that will stop the rookie holdouts.

Jerry:                                     14:32                     Always think but I always think every with a two, with a more than a one year contract, you’re going to have, I think his name is Drew Rosenhaus. He’s a very famous agent along with Scott Boris. Those guys are not going to a, if it’s a two year contract, I’m, they will tell their client and they will basically go on the media and say, I’m just going to. I don’t, I don’t know who representing Ezekiel Elliott. But Boris goes and says, my client just did things that Jim Campbell and Earl, sorry, Jim Brown, Earl Campbell didn’t do. He deserves top notch money right now. After one year I want to renegotiate and if we don’t renegotiate, he’s going to hold out. So we’re back to the same what we’re talking about right now. This guy (is) just going to hold out.

DJ:                                          15:13                     Once again in the rookie contract you put a stipulation in there that if you hold out, it extends. It will always extend that rookie contract.

Jerry:                                     15:22                     I like the idea. I do, I do, but I don’t think the union would ever agree to that and they’ve already got a couple of reasons why they want to lengthen this uh, the 2020 negotiation toward there won’t be a 20, 20 season. That’s just going to add to it.

DJ:                                          15:36                     It doesn’t matter to me what the Union thinks. It doesn’t matter to me what the agents think. What matters to me is an ethical side of it, right or wrong, and I think you should hold, you should hold to your word and when you sign a contract that is equivalent to your word, ethically, the right thing to do is to fulfill your word. And if you shortened the length of the contract, it makes it easier for these players to actually do that, to fulfill their word, to be moral people and not hold out. Cause I don’t think holding out is necessary even though it’s a good bargaining chip that works. Yeah. Tactic. It works for them. I don’t think it’s a moral thing to do because you’re going against your word. It’s equivalent to lying to me. You’re saying, I will be here for three years, but no, after two I’m not going to be here anymore. That’s a lie.

Jerry:                                     16:26                     And you’re describing a state of the league that was back in the 60s, 70s, but it started going away in the late 70s toward the 80s and when the money started coming in, and that’s what this boils down to. They themselves, the agent, like you said, from themselves, but they want their clients. It’s almost like the Jerry Maguire movie. Show me the money, show me the money now.

DJ:                                          16:44                     You can be shown the money after the rookie contract, after the two years…

Jerry:                                     16:48                     Again.

DJ:                                          16:48                     When you’ve earned it.

Jerry:                                     16:49                     I love the idea how, look if you hold out, if you’re not a rookie for another extra year. I get it. I love it. But again, I really don’t think, I know you don’t care. You made that clear, but they’re not going to agree to that. That’s not going to happen. There’s no way that’s going to be in the contract because A. the union wants to make as much money for their clients. All the players, not clients. All of their membership I should call it. And then the, yeah the agents on top. Yeah. They want their money and they’re not going to let their client hold out. Cause if they would hold out and then it extended, they lose all their lucky, what you call the tactic bargaining chip is gone. Yeah, I agree that that’s why the CBA or the union will not agree to it. The union will say no, we’ll give them a two or three year but they can hold out and they do, if they put up numbers that are astronomical, it’s no different than a veteran who’s been in the league and he signed four different contracts but after the fifth contract, he blew the numbers out of the water and now he demanded a trade cause he wants Antonio Brown money cause he does things that Antonio Brown didn’t do.

DJ:                                          17:48                     Even though I’m putting the restrictions on those veterans, they are just as wrong for holding out. If they signed for that big money and they end up, someone else gets a bigger contract, they should perform during their contract and then negotiate for that big money once their contracts over. I’m just trying to stop the holdouts within the rookie contract the, five, six years of the beginning of their career. The rest of them, they’re just as wrong. But there’s no way you’re going to stop them from holding out. I don’t know how, I haven’t come up with it.

Jerry:                                     18:17                     I think with the entitlement thinking that our younger generation has now, that they’re going to come out and it’s just, it’s not, it’s almost like stamping little babies. They’re not getting their way as far as the agents. So, how am I going to say this? That they want to get their clients where they can hold out and yes, she got the unions. Again, they’re saying they’re looking out for all membership. Now, It’s almost like, I think what would happen if it went through in your ideal pass and the union agreed to it. Now you’re going to have these rookies doing what Antonio Brown (did) and I think he was advised by his agent to do what he did. And Antonio Brown didn’t hold out last year. You know what he did. He basically jumped ship, almost like a mutiny, didn’t show up for practice and then he got benched. He almost kind of like threw a fit that he would be traded or almost kicked off the team. I mean he did things like a pouting child. So, how I’m referring it back to these rookie contracts. You get a rookie that and their agent says, look, you can’t hold out because if you do, your contract was three years now it’s going to be four years. So now go there, but go do half. Don’t show up at practice, be late, take the fines. Be, in other words, be a poison in your locker room.

DJ:                                          19:28                     Be pragmatic, which I think is evil..

Jerry:                                     19:30                     Which is what.

DJ:                                          19:31                     That does, that doesn’t make you, I’m trying to stop the bad ethics of holding out and you’re replacing it with another one bad ethic.

Jerry:                                     19:39                     I know what you’re doing, but I’m trying to tell you what will happen. I’m not replacing it. You will have these players that will be advised by these slime agents.

DJ:                                          19:47                     I didn’t mean you. I meant the players are..

Jerry:                                     19:47                     I know, I know. And they’re basically, well, they’re acting out like a little child and I know it’s not them, it’s the agent saying, listen, this is wrong.

DJ:                                          19:56                     Didn’t I already say the agents are bad, just as the unions are bad? I already said that. So that’s been established.

Jerry:                                     20:00                     How do you get rid of the agents? You can’t.

DJ:                                          20:02                     I’m not saying get rid of them, but harness, at least the beginning of the career and that way it lessens their power. The agents will have the power after the rookie contract, after they’ve established themselves. You’re right. They’re not going to go for it. You’re absolutely right and I don’t think that the union will go for it either. You never, look, where I got part of this idea from was where it actually happens in reality, in the NHL. They have a rookie contract. It’s based on age, but you have to sign for, if you’re between 18 and 21, it’s a three year contract between 22 and 23, a two year contract and over 24 it’s a one year contract. That was the template where I got the idea from. The numbers to me is like an Algebraic equation. It’s an x. It can mean any number, but it must mean some number and that’s for them to negotiate. But there’s no reason why I can’t see the rookie contract, can’t stick to these and you can even do this tier way with by position, cause we know running backs last longer. You could make them the one year and we know, instead of doing it by age or by position. And you know, kickers and quarterbacks last longer, they can do the three year one. There’s ways you can make this work to where it’s equitable. The question is, do they want it? And I agree with you, I don’t think the agents and the unions are going to want that.

Jerry:                                     21:28                     And that’s where I ask, I don’t know how the NHL got this. I don’t know how the union representative agreed to this, but okay. The problem, the only thing that I see with. How do I explain this? Hockey and football are almost like what I’m talking about with generation shift and back when we were growing up, when we did something wrong. We got yelled at. We literally admitted our guilt. Sorry, it won’t happen again and you didn’t make that same mistake twice. To where now it’s..

DJ:                                          21:54                     Oh, you think Brad Marchand admits his guilt and won’t make the same mistake twice? No, I think it still happens there. That attitude is still there. I don’t think It’s..

Jerry:                                     22:01                     No, I’m not talking on the ice. Okay. I’m talking off the ice, that these hockey players are more respectful and grateful that they’ll take that 900,000 or a million dollars. Now, again, the NHL only made $4 billion. They make a lot less, but still, I think that hockey player is just more of a, hey, I just want to play hockey. I’ll take 2 million. And if the union agreed to this contract, I’ll skate my butt off. Sidney Crosby did it. Uh, Connor Mcdavid, you pointed out, was the one who did it. And these guys are of god-like talent. But again, I think those two are a cut above. Yes, that’s how things ought to be.

DJ:                                          22:34                     But they were still harnessed to the contract. That’s the point.

Jerry:                                     22:37                     I know.

DJ:                                          22:37                     And these big stars in the NFL should be harnessed the same way.

Jerry:                                     22:40                     I don’t think there’s one NFL star that you can put to David and Crosby character and say that they’re both equal. Those guys have class.

DJ:                                          22:46                     I meant by talent, not character. I was talking about talent.

Jerry:                                     22:49                     Again with their talent, but that’s my point. Crosby, if you put Le’Veon Bell in hockey and he’s got Crosby skill, he’s not going to accept this contract, even as a rookie. He’s going to hold out. He’s going to say, hey, I’m more, whatever. I’m just saying that the attitude of the NFL player is not close. The NHL is more respectful.

DJ:                                          23:09                     He has no choice. Then you don’t sign. You don’t play. If you want to play in the NHL as a rookie, you must. This is in the CBA. You must adhere to this.

Jerry:                                     23:19                     Again.

DJ:                                          23:20                     So if it’s in the CVA for the NFL, I don’t care if you have that attitude or not. You must adhere to it or you don’t play and if they don’t play, they’re not going to get the million.

Jerry:                                     23:30                     I guess my point is, the NHL players aren’t going to complain about it. When Crosby had ungodly years, first rookie season, they thought this kid is the next one. He didn’t come out and say, I want more money.

DJ:                                          23:40                     I don’t know who did that.

Jerry:                                     23:40                     But an NFL player would.

DJ:                                          23:41                     I don’t agree with that because they have a union. They have gone strike, they’ve tried to, it doesn’t matter the strength or not. They have negotiated, they have gone on strike. They’ve done everything that the NFL players association can and will do and yet they negotiated for this for the rookies only and this is why I emphasize it for the rookie contracts only. It would at least stop those holdouts. It’s not going to stop Le’Veon Bell’s. It’s not going to stop what Antonio Brown does. The solution I have for the Antonio Brown situation is, other teams should shun him. Also, see here’s the where the pragmatism comes in, they only care about winning, so they won’t, they won’t shun him. They care about getting that prize at the end of the season. Instead of caring about principle, there’s the root of the problem. If they cared about principle, then they would shun him. They would not reward him for acting like the baby you’re saying he’s acting like. That is the problem.

Jerry:                                     24:37                     I completely agree. That’s never going to happen because you’re going to have a team like the Raiders, that will pay Antonio Brown to be that child because of the so called skill and athletic ability he brings to that team. I mean, even though they’ve seen what he did in the locker room as a poison to the Steelers, you still got that team that will go out there and do this. So you got NFL teams saying, we can’t let him go, because if we do, someone will scoop him up. Even though he’s a character and he’s a locker room problem, we can’t let him go.

DJ:                                          25:03                     That’s the problem. That’s part of the problem. If they would learn to let him go, then he would be punished without being punished. He’d be punished because no one would sign him.

Jerry:                                     25:14                     But okay. That’s only if the other 31 teams don’t sign him.

DJ:                                          25:17                     Wait a minute, I know they can do that because of Colin Kaepernick. They didn’t sign him. It’s possible. I’m not saying it was right or wrong what they did to Kaepernick, but I’m saying it’s possible because it happened to him.

Jerry:                                     25:30                     Okay, but I’m going to throw something that Kaepernick was different. If Kaepernick would of had Brady’s skills, the team would have, someone would of signed him. I don’t think that that was a collusion thing.

DJ:                                          25:41                     So you think you’re going to put Antonio Brown up, cause we were talking about Antonio Brown being the child.

Jerry:                                     25:45                     Yes.

DJ:                                          25:45                     You’re going to put Antonio Brown’s skills up with that of Brady and all the great ones. I don’t think he is.

Jerry:                                     25:51                     Yeah, no, yeah.

DJ:                                          25:51                     I think he’s like, even though, it’s different positions, I think it’s equivalent to Kaepernick.

Jerry:                                     25:57                     You know he’s done, no, no, not Antonio Brown. He’s done things. He’s special. He is a special player. He’s one of those ones. That’s what I’m trying to say, another team will scoop him up. There are other teams out there. They were just begging the Steelers to cut him, that they didn’t want to trade for him and the more it went, the more leveraged the other teams had. Why would we want to trade for them when we know for a fact you’re going to cut them after their season ends?

DJ:                                          26:16                     Okay, let’s just say you’re right. He is special and that could be the case. I’m not arguing that. It doesn’t mean the other teams could not stand and just say, no, I’m not doing that. Just like they did with Kaepernick..

Jerry:                                     26:28                     I guess what I’m saying is Kaepernick was special. Someone would’ve picked him up and they were with third that press hit, they would have went through it. I’m telling you, I really believe that the 32 ethical that thought..

DJ:                                          26:38                     It’s irrelevant.

Jerry:                                     26:38                     Kaepernick wasn’t good anymore.

DJ:                                          26:40                     But that’s irrelevant. The point is they still did it. They still did it and if they can do it for him, they can do it for Antonio Brown. That’s my point. If they stuck together. You’re right. There are weak, morally weak teams out there, the management’s morally weak, ownership community, morally weak and they will compromise. They’ll compromise on everything, just to get that glittering prize.

Jerry:                                     27:02                     Okay, I also think Kaepernick was a business decision too.

DJ:                                          27:05                     All of this is the business decision.

Jerry:                                     27:06                     Yes. But again, Antonio Brown was not going to bring negativity right away to the locker room. A distraction, from day one. Kaepernick brings that to every organization. And then an organization knows that and then you add up. Again, Antonio Brown had Kaepernick’s motive, the whole anthem stuff. You’re kneeling down with all his social injustice thing and he did what Kaepernick’s doing. Yes. Another team would have picked him up in a heartbeat. So what I’m trying to say is it’s one of two things, you’re saying the owners did it, but the owners did it because there were 32 teams who voluntarily said, I don’t want this guy on my team.

DJ:                                          27:40                     I agree. And they could, they could voluntarily agree, I don’t want Antonio Brown. The problem is they will compromise. I’m agreeing with you on this point. They will compromise, they will be the Raiders. But the fact that they did it with Kaepernick, it means they can do it within Antonio Brown. They choose not to, but they can.

Jerry:                                     27:57                     I understand that. But, I’m trying to say is, yeah, with a talent like that, it just won’t happen. So again, your rookie contract would be solved and I still think you’re going to have bad advice from the agents who act like attorneys to get my client more money.

DJ:                                          28:10                     Agents aren’t attorneys.

Jerry:                                     28:11                     Okay, well what they’re doing basically is saying, listen for you to (not) drag this out. Don’t give full effort. If they want full effort, they should pay you. And you’re getting these agents telling me, these guys are kids.

DJ:                                          28:21                     That could also be detrimental to them, cause if they don’t give the full effort, when they do end that small working contract, they won’t get the huge money cause they didn’t give the effort.

Jerry:                                     28:29                     What I was going to say is, if it’s a three year contract, the other first year he has a great year and he..

DJ:                                          28:34                     But I did it by position, what, you said three year contract, what position are we talking about now?

Jerry:                                     28:37                     Running back, running back.

DJ:                                          28:38                     I don’t think that should be that long, running back should be maximum two years contract, because the nature of their position, they could get hurt easily.

Jerry:                                     28:45                     I’ll tell you what, the two year contract answered my, I guess my flaw in the three year contract was. The agent will tell that player, okay, look, first year we want to negotiate. Ownership says no, you signed a three year deal and you’re going to hold to it, that’s the way it is. All right. Listen, you’re going to go through and go through the motion the second year. The third year is the contract year and every player in the (contract) year lights it up because that’s your next year. Now, also what we say is, if the plan is Ezekial Elliott were playing for the cowboys. You’re right. I’m going to go through the motions second year and I’m coming out. I’m going to shine my third year, but I’m not reupping with you.

DJ:                                          29:18                     They have that choice to go, if they’re a free agent, to go where they want to. That’s their freedom of volition.

Jerry:                                     29:25                     Correct, but that team just got split.

DJ:                                          29:27                     But with, oh well, you could get screwed. You could draft and sign the best player in history and he could break his knee in training camp and he can never ever play a game for you and you end up getting screwed. It’s no different. There’s a gamble in everything.

Jerry:                                     29:43                     No, you’re correct. No. Well, you don’t know what they’re going to turn out to be, but again, a version of Barry Sanders, you’re going to have that agent basically saying, we want to re-up, because he’s done things that no other running back has done.

DJ:                                          29:56                     Well, we have to stick it within the context of what I said. The running backs would have a chance to re-up sooner than virtually everyone else. And those, even those tiers could be negotiated with the Union and management. But I do think this is a template that could work in the NFL and any of this. It’s only the solution of rookies holding out. That’s it.

Jerry:                                     30:22                     I understand. I know, I understand. I just think when they negotiate the quarterbacks, they’re going to say, no way, whatever, we want that to, linemen, safety’s, whatever it may be.

DJ:                                          30:30                     Well, tell us what your opinion is on this. You can email us at, go to our website and you can get the podcast, as well as the transcript and sometimes the blog. Just let us know. Give us some kind of feedback. I want to thank you so much for listening to us. We appreciate every single listener that we can get, and we do get, this is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 23 – Taunting Transcript

Announcer:                        00:00                     You’re listening to the Podcast Detroit network. Visit for more information.

Jerry:                                     00:20                     This is grand design podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand. Where we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

DJ:                                          00:36                     Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to us and the Grand Designs Podcast. I’m DJ Grand and I’m here as always with my brother Jerry.

Jerry:                                     00:43                     Hello.

DJ:                                          00:44                     Uh, Today. Episode 23. We’re going to be doing a couple of college football things and then a Detroit Tiger baseball topic. First, it’s the Big 12 and uh, “horns down” that’s supposed to be a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty now.

Jerry:                                     00:59                     We’re going to call it taunting cause that’s really what it is. And a, basically it’s protecting the Oklahoma Sooners cause if they, and I’m sorry, not Oklahoma, Texas Longhorns, the Texas has the hook ’em horns where they take their fingers and point them upward as a, as a horn. If they do that now where it’s put facing down, I guess they started this last year. And specifically if they do a player or a fan, they will be penalized. But if the, I watched the conference, the rule set, if they mightily do it, it will be allowed. So there’s this gray area to where now it’s up to a ref to judge on the determination on whether it was mild or was in the person’s face or what was taunting. The problem is they’re only protecting Texas, they shouldn’t even be penalizing. They’re going to penalize taunting, they (have to) penalize all the taunting. And this includes from Michigan, Michigan State Western, even into the a division II and III to where they made a good tackle or a good play and they just stand over a player and the next play, they screw it up. But there’s no flags for taunting. So I don’t know why they want to say you can’t taunt a Texas player, but if you (are part of their)college, you could do it.

DJ:                                          02:07                     My problem is it should be universal. Any, even the upward Longhorn symbol should be wrong. Any hand gesture then should be wrong. They can make any rule they want and they can enforce it how they want. It’s their league. But I think there should be a little bit of universality with it. If it’s wrong in one instance, it should be wrong in every instance up and down. Um, I watched, uh, Greg Burkes, the Big 12 coordinator official. I watched his press conference. It was actually kind of boring, but when he got, he started talking about the horns down, my problem with it was he basically was lashing at the individual he wants to focus on if it takes anything away from the team and it’s an individual, then they can throw the penalty. And there’s my philosophical problem with it.

Jerry:                                     02:53                     I (saw) him speak live and he definitely mentioned that the individual is to out, there’s no place in this game for the individual. And that was his quote. So it’s a team game that that’s what he’s looking at it. But that has nothing to do with the hook ’em horns. Quite frankly, if I played for Texas and someone did that, that would just get me more motivated to go beat them because they, you know, did an opposite nasty gesture to the hook ’em horns. But if I’m doing the horns up in the air, it’s going to come back at me. So, like you said, it does go both ways. Why they’re protecting one and not the other, I can’t figure out.

DJ:                                          03:29                     Well here’s the quote from Greg Burkes quote “by rule anything prolonged and designed to bring attention to the individual rather than the team is a foul.” Well my problem with that word, if anything, I mean that means no dancing in the end zone by yourself. No, no. Although if you get a tackle and you dance afterwards, that’s bad because that would bring a prolonged designed to bring attention to the individual. That’s exactly what that is. So he’s not going to be consistent with that statement.

Jerry:                                     04:03                     When I watched that conference, they were literally focusing on the down longhorns down sign. They didn’t talk about taunting any other thing. It was just the horns going down. The player and they’re showing a Will Greer who was a quarterback for West Virginia scoring a touchdown and going (to) the fans and doing the horns down. That would have been a penalty. Cause he’s going to the fans bringing attention to himself by going to the fan or to a player. Uh, again it’s just they’re just the big horns down. If they want to get in front of them. And I’m assuming flash the middle finger, that’s going to be okay. But it’s the horns down specifically.

DJ:                                          04:41                     I really don’t think that middle finger will be okay. But that is an actual quote from that conference. He that he said about bringing attention to the individual rather the team is a foul. So, being consistent with that statement. What I said holds true. You can’t, you will not be able to celebrate any individual achievement because that brings attention to the individual and not towards the team.

Jerry:                                     05:04                     I’m pretty sure if they score a touchdown and they do the horns up, they’re not going to get penalty.

DJ:                                          05:07                     Well, the only thing I agreed with him was when he said he was trying to say it depends. And I think what he meant was the context. He said if he, if they were doing it in the sidelines with their team, it would be overlooked. But if they did it all by themselves, went to the opposing sports opposing team’s fans and then it would be considered a foul.

Jerry:                                     05:29                     Horns up?

DJ:                                          05:31                     Oh, he only mentioned the horns down.

Jerry:                                     05:33                     That’s what I mean, only horns down.

DJ:                                          05:35                     That’s what I meant by the university. It, it should go both. It should go all hand gestures then.

Jerry:                                     05:40                     I completely agree. But you can’t stop there and now it’s got to go to where if you make a nice plan in the field, you can’t stand over the guy, look at him like you’re whatever, making fun of him and taunting it was what you’re doing. That should be a penalty. All that stuff where they get up and they tap their chest and they think they’ve made the greatest play in the world again, like I said earlier, only the next screw it up and make you look like an idiot, they’re not dancing around anymore. If they’re to enforce this by the law, you know how long these games will take. Cause it’s a culture is a culture with these kids and a college or kids what they do.

DJ:                                          06:10                     To me it’s just like hockey. If they actually did hold it consistently, every single infraction called then eventually they would learn and it would stop.

Jerry:                                     06:20                     I (have to) tell you it’s made, it’s has got my interest where I want to watch the first a Texas game and more maybe not the first cause if they got the three uh, non-conference game but the first conference game, when they play Oklahoma, when they play Oklahoma State, all their rivals, I want to see those games just for the penalties because I know those kids are going to go horns down and then it’s an interpretation or they (going to) throw the flag. And what happens if in the first quarter the kid does a horns down they throw the flag but in the fourth quarter because they may change the whole game. That’s where it gets into this whole gray area where it’s going to be interpretation on the referee and it’s end of the game, last two minutes, they’re not going to call it. That changes the game.

DJ:                                          06:57                     Well, once again, Greg Burkes said his advice to those wanting to do horns down, do it in the back of their own bench area. Which ones that focuses on the team. If you do it amongst the team, with the group, the collective, it’s okay. But if you do it as an individual, then it becomes a sin.

Jerry:                                     07:13                     I’m going to again, interesting to see how they interpret that then actually officiated it.

DJ:                                          07:18                     The next topic is more Michigan related and Jim Harbaugh was on a podcast and sort of made a truth statement about Urban Meyer and somehow some way it became controversial.

Jerry:                                     07:33                     Uh, it only became controversial because the people who, I mean, everybody, even the Detroit, uh, TV announcers, uh, Harbaugh hasn’t beaten Urban Meyers, so what right to he have to say anything. That right there was doing the same exact thing that they’re accusing Jim Harbaugh of doing to Meyer.

DJ:                                          07:50                     Well, first let’s say what he said. Uh, he’s Harbaugh said Meyer had a really phenomenal record everywhere, his band, and then he followed that up by saying controversy follows him everywhere he’s been as well. Um, that’s a true statement. The, I don’t care who says that, I don’t care if you lose a hundred times to Ohio state or if you beat Ohio state a hundred times. It’s the truth. It shouldn’t matter whether you beat Ohio State or not. And in fact, the one thing I didn’t like about it was a, his daughter, uh, Urban Meyer’s daughter came to his rescue or tried to back him up and basically said what you just said that he has, he was trying to deflect from the fact that he hasn’t won, he’s 0-4 against Urban. In fact, Nikki Meyer, Urban Meyer’s daughter responded to Harbaugh’s initial comment, uh, on the podcast by questioning if Harbaugh was deflecting from his own 0-4 record versus Meyer.

Jerry:                                     08:43                     Well all those who bring up the 0-4 record are flat out just deflecting or they didn’t want to talk about that he told the truth. That there was controversy with Urban Meyer and his daughter didn’t like Harbaugh bringing that fact up. The fact that it was a truth, that controversy does follow. So because of that, they have to lash back and every single Detroit announcer had the same question. So even his daughter, Nicki, you just did the same thing that (you think) Harbaugh did to your dad. You said something negative. So why is it okay for you to point out that he’s lost all four, which we already know. I’m sure Harbaugh knows that too. Well, you’re doing it to get back at Harbaugh for what he said.

DJ:                                          09:23                     To me, Nikki was the one that was deflecting. She was deflecting from the fact that controversy does follow…

Jerry:                                     09:29                     It was the truth.

DJ:                                          09:29                     Her father and she’s deflected saying, you’re 0-4,, there is where the deflection was and so like projected.

Jerry:                                     09:37                     That’s my whole point. She, they didn’t like that was too personal even though it was the truth. How dare you. So now I’m going to go out and I’m going to bring up that you never beat him. Just, deflecting is a good word. But that’s exactly all (she) had to do. But I don’t think his record has anything to do with it. He told the truth and that’s the reason why Urban Meyer’s not coaching today because of the controversy, whether it be with Ohio state or in Florida was even worse. And he got away with it in Florida. Came out like an angel on that one.

DJ:                                          10:03                     Urban Meyer will be back. I’m hearing he’s, they’re interested in Southern California.

Jerry:                                     10:08                     I believe you. I’ve said from day one USC, but give it three years. Just like with the last controversy at Florida, it cools down. Everyone forgets about it and Bam, he’s back on the west coast coach and USC. So then we’ll just wait and see what controversy follow? Being in USC, odds are it’s going to.

DJ:                                          10:26                     The one thing I didn’t like about what Harbaugh said is the time he said it, I think it would have been better served had he said it while Urban Meyer was still the coach cause now he’s not coached against him anymore. But other than that I have no problem with what he said. It was the truth. I just think it would have looked a little better had he said it while he was still coaching, just last year.

Jerry:                                     10:45                     And I also liked in the context was he asked about him or did he just bring it up out of the blue that he wants the big 10 conference to find out that…

DJ:                                          10:52                     Well this is on the podcast.

Jerry:                                     10:53                     Oh yeah, the podcast and that podcast person must have asked him a question.

DJ:                                          10:58                     Sure.

Jerry:                                     10:59                     So that’s why he said it. So it’s not, I don’t blame Harbaugh, Harbaugh for waiting on doing it. It was asked of him, what’s he going to do?

DJ:                                          11:05                     What they brought up in the big 10 or the Michigan Media Day, they did ask him about a context and he’d just basically said there was no context. This is my opinion, period. There’s no, you guys know about it. You guys have reported on it.

Jerry:                                     11:17                     And that’s what I’ve seen the next day. You guys have all in this room reported about it and written about it and there was done. It was over with and which was true. Everybody in there knows it. But again, some people with a, I don’t know, a feelings or they don’t want to face the truth. They get real, real sensitive and all those buckeye fans because now they’re not even predicted to come in third place. That’s a real, real tough, touchy situation that Urban’s left. And now that whole mystique with Ohio State’s gone with him.

DJ:                                          11:45                     Well, I don’t trust those preseason predictions. I mean until they play the game then…

Jerry:                                     11:50                     The last couple of years I’ve had Alabama couple ever since they started this whole playoff, it’s always been Alabama and Clemson who started out number one, number two, every single year. They’ve gotten that part right.

DJ:                                          11:59                     Well, yeah, but not always, but I just say I don’t trust them. I’d rather wait until they actually play before we start looking.

Jerry:                                     12:05                     Look, I think that committee has a bias for the SEC period and the story, there’s always going to be two SEC teams and with that being said to be two SEC teams, one’s a non-champion, which means a conference champion is going to get screwed every single year.

DJ:                                          12:19                     So one last thing, they accused Harbaugh of was “poking the bear”, which, which means he was taunting. Basically. He was taunting Ohio state. The comment was poking the bear.

Jerry:                                     12:32                     How can you poke the bear that’s beating you like the last 10 times in a row? I don’t get it.

DJ:                                          12:35                     Oh, I guess. I guess the bear’s gone asleep now and they’re poking it.

Jerry:                                     12:39                     I guess.

DJ:                                          12:39                     That’s what they said. I’m not saying this, this is what…

Jerry:                                     12:42                     Had Michigan won all those games in a row, they’d be asleep and they’d be over confident. I can’t see them poking the bear. I can’t, the 62 nothing, them run the score up. Was that poking a bear? They did. They ran the score up. It’s cool. I have no problem with it and Michigan should have stopped them. But that’s exactly what they did. Was that poking the bear? No. So basically it’s an Ohio State getting a little bit too sensitive.

DJ:                                          13:05                     This is what he said “It was my opinion. I’m not into making animal analogies. So the poking the bear thing doesn’t resonate with me. There’s really nothing more to it.” They brought up the poking the bear to him accusing him of it.

Jerry:                                     13:19                     And they wanted to get him to draw something blackboard material. And that’s just not (going to) work. And even that, the Urban Meyer, uh, comments, aren’t really blackboard material, cause he’s not even, he’s not even around anymore. It’s a Brian Days team. So that, that can’t be blackboard. That you’re just Ohio state fans, media looking for something. So it can motivate the team. I don’t think it’s going to work.

DJ:                                          13:39                     Bottom line, it shouldn’t matter what his record is against Ohio state. It should matter if it’s the truth or not. And that’s what they should be focusing on instead of focusing on the fact that he lost four times to Ohio State. Is it the truth? And that should be what matters.

Jerry:                                     13:52                     I agree.

DJ:                                          13:53                     That’s too bad that no one else does or very few others do and next we’re (going to) move on to Detroit Tigers. Uh, we went to the game, uh, on Sunday and

Jerry:                                     14:06                     Yes, I’d like to thank, uh, the, the Lebowski law firm again, Lebowski law firm for inviting us out. Uh, it was a great day. It was a fun time. I enjoyed myself. Um, at the end of the game, uh, I think, uh, Nick Cassiana I’m probably saying his name wrong. Hey, had a pretty good game.

DJ:                                          14:23                     Nicholas Castellano’s that’s who it was. But he basically was lashing after hitting the winning home run, walk off home run. He lashed at Comerica Park saying that it was a joke and basically because it should’ve went farther than the first seats because, and other stadiums it would have.

Jerry:                                     14:41                     Does he know? They’ve already shortened Comerica once?

DJ:                                          14:45                     Apparently he wants it even shorter. Even more. Probably the center field is pretty far, pretty far. 420 feet, but he probably wants it more.

Jerry:                                     14:52                     Okay. Does he know what Tiger Stadium was? Dead Center field.

DJ:                                          14:57                     How do I know that?

Jerry:                                     14:59                     He doesn’t because it was four 40 so Tiger Stadium, that’s, that’s a bomb. Remember you were at Tiger Stadium.

DJ:                                          15:06                     Oh, absolutely

Jerry:                                     15:06                     It used to be a death valley, but the problem with Tiger Stadium, and then you got to hear this about Yankee stadium. It had two short left field and right field lines. I think the right field was 325. That’s a softball park. 325 for a pro. You get a pop up. On a good day, it would hit Tiger Stadium’s overhang and that’s a home run. That’s what Castellano wants. That’s Tiger stadium. But that went away long time ago. I don’t know what year, but Juan Gonzalez came to the Detroit Tigers before he came, he was a homerun heating machine, came to the Tigers and just didn’t do anything. Meaning it hit home runs that he was expected and paid for to hit. They then brought the right field and left field seats. The bullpen used to be in right field, but because they brought it in, they moved the bullpens, a left field for both teams. So again, it shorter now than it was when Comerica first opened. So I don’t know what Mr Nicholas was.

DJ:                                          16:01                     Well let’s give him the floor. His quote is “this park’s a joke. It’s to the point where how are we going to be compared to the rest of the people in the League for power numbers and OPS and slugging and all this stuff. When it got a yard out there that’s 420 feet straight across to center field, we’d get on second base, third base and opposing players looking like, how do you guys do this? We play 81 games here. I don’t want to hear it about your two. You hit that are questionable.” That was the quote.

Jerry:                                     16:32                     Well he was thinking about himself there are a lot because the whole OnBase percentage and doubles and triples and I guess maybe that’s his way of wanting out of Detroit and that could be his motive cause it, you know, they’re pretty bad this year.

DJ:                                          16:44                     And I hear he’s on the trading block too.

Jerry:                                     16:46                     Well, he’s been on the trading block for the last couple of years and they just never pulled the trigger or nobody wants him. And if he was, there’s a couple, I’m not sure. I didn’t look it up, but I know Tiger stadium (Comerica Park) isn’t the longest out there.

DJ:                                          16:59                     I did. We’ll get to that after this. However, he did actually tried to deflect from himself and he said he tried to put the issue in the perspective or Castalano tried to put the issue in the respective of Miguel Cabrera cause he would be considered by many to be one of the best hitters, if not the best of this generation. Okay. Quote, “let’s just say Miggy played his whole career in Yankee Stadium or Great American Ballpark or whatever. Him and Bonds are already the greatest hitters, period. There’s no discussion. But the fact that he’s played in Pro Player stadium, the Marlin’s ball park and then Comerica park, there’s a discussion.” So he did try and take it away from him, Castellano.

Jerry:                                     17:38                     And look what Cabrerra did he sees, okay, here’s my problem. Did anyone for the tiger’s complaint 2006 about it being too big? Did they complain in 2012? Those are two years they went through the world series. They weren’t complaining then when Maglio Dornes hit the walk off homer against the A’s to get to the world series, they weren’t complaining then.

DJ:                                          18:00                     Well, when the Kansas City Royals one recently, the world series, they weren’t home run hitters. They did it by contact hitting and so you don’t necessarily need to be home run hitters to win it all.

Jerry:                                     18:10                     I think you and I were both taught to play wasn’t power. It was about base hits.

DJ:                                          18:14                     Contact hitting, it’s what I said.

Jerry:                                     18:15                     Hit him, hit him where they’re not. All right. And I thought Castellano did that yesterday. He had a double , a ground rule double. I mean he was doing pretty good, so to complain about the, and really if you think about it, if it went to left field, I’m assuming as home went to left field, it went to the first row that cleared the entire bullpen

DJ:                                          18:31                     It was leftfield

Jerry:                                     18:32                     It’s a poke. And so

DJ:                                          18:34                     I didn’t really see it but it was a little further than the first row.

Jerry:                                     18:36                     Even the third row. It went over the bullpen. So they had seats there. Nick, your ball you just hit was now 15 rows out, is that what you want.?

DJ:                                          18:45                     Didn’t he say it was 434 feet? So yeah, it was 434 feet. Well now this was a, from what he said, there’s no reason, uh, that I hit a ball 434 feet off of Annabel Sanchez and it goes in the first row. That shouldn’t happen. Well 434 is longer than the 420 he was complaining about in center field.

Jerry:                                     19:09                     Correct. But again, that wouldn’t have been out in Tiger Stadium Dead Center. That probably would’ve been a home run in left field. Cause they had a short left field and right field. As I said earlier,

DJ:                                          19:18                     well 434 would of, it’s further…

Jerry:                                     19:20                     than that, but that was 434 I think would’ve been, cause I don’t remember the Tiger (Stadium). I know that right field was 325 he had 430

DJ:                                          19:27                     I’m talking about Comerica Park. I mean Comerica Park.

Jerry:                                     19:29                     Correct, correct. Right. But I’m saying if Nick would’ve hit that ball in Tiger stadium, it may have been in the upper deck. Is that what he wants? His upper deck home runs, so he looks like he’s powerful dude. If you hit the ball out of a long ballpark, you still powerful. I don’t get it. I don’t get what his point is.

DJ:                                          19:43                     Well, as far as the parks go, the did an article about where the most home runs go and where the least home runs go and the top five stadiums that got the most home runs hit out of Camden yards for the Orioles. Then Yankee stadium was number two. Rogers Centre of the Blue Jays was number three. Great American ballpark for the Reds was number four and Coors field was number five. Those are the top five home or home run ballparks.

Jerry:                                     20:13                     So that’s basically where nick wants to go play.

DJ:                                          20:15                     Well, the bottom five, the war, I’ll start at five and work all the way down. Five is a Kauffman Stadium with the Royals, then AT&T park with the San Francisco Giants, Wrigley Field, and the Cubs was a second from last. The penultimate one. PNC Park was the Pirates and the last one was Marlins park. They were the worst of the homeruns. I didn’t hear Comerica Park listed in any of those five. Yet, those were the worst. Those were the worst five.

Jerry:                                     20:48                     Those are the longest five.

DJ:                                          20:49                     Yeah. Those are the ones who had the least home runs. The Marlin’s had 591 uh, uh, PNC park had 654. Wrigley field has 679 and comparatively speaking, the top ones, Camden yards had 1,110 Yankee stadium in 1044 and Rogers Centre of the Blue Jays in 1010, they’re comparative. Speaking between the worst and the best in between. Then obviously was the, was a Comerica Park. He doesn’t have much gripe, too much (of an) argument.

Jerry:                                     21:18                     One of the longest parks was Kansas City, correct? Royals.

DJ:                                          21:22                     That was one of the hardest parks.

Jerry:                                     21:23                     Longest same thing, right?

DJ:                                          21:25                     They were a number five, they were of the worst.

Jerry:                                     21:28                     So Bo Jackson is famous and known all star game for hitting a monster shot in Kansas City.

DJ:                                          21:34                     But was that in Kauffman Stadium or was that a different stadium?

Jerry:                                     21:38                     It’s the same stadium they’re playing in right now.

DJ:                                          21:40                     Is it? OK

Jerry:                                     21:40                     You’ve got the same fountain, that same crown. Bo Jackson hit the crown. I mean we need his first day there. This wasn’t a game. Uh, the GM when he just came in after he left the, he played with Auburn, I believe it was, and he got disqualified from collegiate baseball and he came to the Kansas Royals. He got drafted cause they thought he was going to play football. They got drafted like in the really, really late rounds came, signed his contract, went out and took batting practice and no one’s ever hit a ball off the crown behind center field. He hit it on the all star game, he (hit the) first pitch, he just, Reagan was doing the play by play when he did it and he’s known for that. That’s a long park. He got a lot of reputation for Bo knows baseball for that hit, so Nick wants something like that. It just hit the ball. He hit one of those trucks that are the cars in center field there. You hit that, you’re going to get your recognition. That’s why I just don’t, I don’t get why he’s worried about it going in the first row. It cleared the fence, you won the game. Does it really matter?

DJ:                                          22:38                     I totally agree. In a way it’s what you were saying earlier. He was trying to bring attention to himself because maybe he wants out of Detroit. Maybe he wants to be traded.

Jerry:                                     22:48                     Well like again if he’s going to do that and pretty much how he stated it though, he can backtrack all he wants, but that first comment that I was listening to was basically all about him. He wants a longer heads, he wants to go out and he’s using the other players coming to visit. Excuse me as how do you guys do this? Why is that even brought up? That’s a conversation between him and another player. I just don’t understand why he would bring up what other players are saying about Comerica. When does he go out to other stadiums in the same way?

DJ:                                          23:15                     I think the point is that the other players were saying we don’t have to do this in our stadium why do you guys have to put up with this in your stadium?

Jerry:                                     23:22                     Toronto is not a short park either. That’s why I don’t, they just played Toronto so that I’m assuming I probably shouldn’t that he had the conversation with one of these Toronto players because it’s fresh in his mind while we bring up like a game that was weeks ago cause they had a road trip. They just came back from this their first home homestand in a while. So I don’t, I just don’t understand what the players who in a different park for if they’re in, well, again, Toronto’s, that’s a pretty big park to hit. It isn’t short. So those guys are going through the same thing. So why they would say, how do you do it? I don’t get it now on the dimensions in Toronto, but I just don’t understand.

DJ:                                          23:56                     I don’t think he was meeting specifically any one team. I think he was just bringing it up generically saying that these guys are all telling me this and you guys have have to suffer with this long ballpark.

Jerry:                                     24:07                     Miguel Cabrera is going to the hall of fame and he’s going in because he’s a great ball player, a great hitter. It doesn’t have to do with the distance of the home runs that he hit or even that amount. I mean Babe Ruth still Hank Aaron though those two there. Babe Ruth, much, much fewer games than Hank Aaron and Hank Aaron yet beat his record. Babe Ruth is still known for the home run record. Uh, the only one that really if you want to talk about someone who got screwed was Roger Maris that that guy got screwed. If you look at home runs recognition nickname, that’s why I don’t get, what Nick’s trying to get at. Does he wants 61 home runs? Does he want to beat Barry Bonds 70? Is he jealous? And San Francisco isn’t a short park either. Now the whole show is of different issue, but bonds hit those out in right field. He had a lot of into the ocean.

DJ:                                          24:52                     Well, San Francisco was listed as one of those five that were hard to hit out of, so.

Jerry:                                     24:55                     Well, there you go, so he brought up Bonds. What are you talking about? I mean, Barry and Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, those guys had to hit in those fields during that whole home run race. So I don’t get, they did it. So why can’t he? So I don’t understand what his point is. It just made him look bad. I mean, it doesn’t look good in my eyes. He’s complaining about the length of the, uh, home run distance yet it was, it’s been shortened already. Once. I would have thought it would have brought that up. I know it’s been shortened. It needs to come in a little bit further. Even bring that up because what he would have, what would he have done had he played when they first built the park?

DJ:                                          25:29                     I think that it was his point though, that he, they should bring the walls in again, a second time. It’s still too long and until someone starts complaining about it and then others start complaining about it and then two more start complaining about it, then it’ll finally come in after pressures.

Jerry:                                     25:43                     And then you’re going to hear what you heard from Tiger Stadium. It’s a softball park. You’ve got to move it back. Why do you think that they built it like they did? They got sick and tired of the Tigers being made fun of coming in here and it’s a 325 down right field line. It may have been shorter than that. May have been 325 in the left field and 315 in the right field. I remember it was a short and everyone made fun of it being a softball park, so I could see where the Tigers organization made it longer because they got a jilting from that. Just the fact that, I mean Reggie Jackson to this day is known for that all star homer and ’72.

DJ:                                          26:17                     That hit the lights on the roof.

Jerry:                                     26:18                     Yes. Because it was so short that never would have happened in Comerica. So I, again, I don’t understand the, I think it’s just for him because he wants it to be known as hitting the monsters home runs. Right now they’re all about exit velocity, the arc that it goes out all these metric saber stats now. And I think that’s what he’s trying to get into. He needs a stats because without the stats, that’s his payday. And with his payday, no team’s (going to) want him if he can’t the ball, I guess 15 rows into the stands.

DJ:                                          26:45                     Well he brought up the power numbers, the OPS and the slugging percentage and “all that stuff,” so, he is concerned about stats. That is the point he wants to stats. And then once again, that’s for himself so that he can better look better for a possible trade. I really think he wants out of Detroit.

Jerry:                                     27:03                     I think. No, I know he does. And I think he’s upset over the, uh, the, the trade rumors. But again, maybe, maybe he’s trying to insinuate a few of those trade rumors cause it is coming on the trade deadline. You’re getting the playoff push because over half the season’s gone by now maybe he just, he’s just doing it. Though my only problem is if he did say that and I’m a GM, I’m not sure I want this guy now because he’s worried about how far hits the ball and where the seats are at.

DJ:                                          27:29                     No only that he’s not loyal to the team. I mean Detroit is not good this year obviously and that that could be another factor that’s influencing his decision that because I don’t want to play on a bad team.

Jerry:                                     27:39                     And that’s a whole other thing. The opposite of it. Back in I think 2012 I think it was 12. They had a pretty formidable pitching staff with Vernlander, a Scherzer, Annabel Sanchez and Rick Porcello and the one who cheated Kenny, I forget that the lefty, but they had that, that was an, that was a knockout staff, but they didn’t win the world series. They’d lost. St Louis, smoked them, hit a lot of home runs in that very same long, long ballpark that he’s talking about. So once again, and they weren’t complaining when they went to the world series that it was too long. Nobody was nobody. Again, so, why now?

DJ:                                          28:19                     I really, bottom line, I think he was trying to get, he trying to make a name for himself so he can get traded.

Jerry:                                     28:25                     Okay. I agree. I don’t think it helped him. So he might want to try different tactic.

DJ:                                          28:29                     Well, that’s our episode for this week. I want to thank you so much for tuning in and listening to the Grand Designs Podcast. We appreciate every single listener that we get. Uh, you can get ahold of us at GrandDesigns, Our email address is GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. You follow us on Twitter @GrandDesignsPod, and you can follow us on Instagram @ GrandDesignPodcast. This is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 22 – Nike and the Betsy Ross Shoe Controversy Transcript

Announcer:                        00:00                     You’re listening to the Podcast Detroit network. Visit for more information

Jerry:                                     00:08                     This is Grand Design Podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand where we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

DJ:                                          00:47                     Welcome to the Grand Designs Podcast. I’m DJ Grand and I’m here ,as always, with my brother Jerry.

Jerry:                                     00:53                     Hello.

DJ:                                          00:53                     Uh, you can get a hold of us at our website at Our email is and you can always follow us on Twitter @GrandDesignsPod and follow us on Instagram @GrandDesignsPodcast. Today is episode 22 when we’re going to be talking about the controversy that Colin Kaepernick has seemed to have ignited when he told Nike to pull their Betsy Ross sneakers.

Jerry:                                     01:21                     Yeah, he’s at it again. Um, I really wanted to find out why he’s at it. I could figure out the whole thing with the American flag and the anthem and the 49ers and all that. This one really puzzled me. Um, but I think it’s just attention. He needs to draw attention or he has some kind of, uh, power with the public Nike that if he basically says a certain product or logo is offensive likely in this case he’s going to listen.

DJ:                                          01:46                     Well, I have a kind of where we attack at twofold on what’s Kaepernick’s thinking and what Nike’s thinking by agreeing with him. Kaepernick’s argument is that the 13 star, Betsy Ross flag represents to many an era of slavery. As Kaepernick, who’s a client (of Nike) reportedly said. But the problem with that, that’s a fallacious argument. It’s logically fallacious. It’s an appeal to the masses. Or when I was studying logic, it’s a appeal to common belief. Uh, right there. It’s flawed. It doesn’t matter what the, how many think of it. That’s such a wrong way of thinking. Beyond that, now what Nike’s thinking, I think they did it because they really thought they could profit from this. They profited from the last time their stocks went up that were during the, the knee, or taking a knee by Kaepernick and what happened again, their stocks went up again.

Jerry:                                     02:36                     Yeah that could be something with Nike and their marketing. I’m that that’s, I would hope not, but that’s a possibility. But this was the first time that I have heard the Betsy Ross flag use associated with the slavery era. Never have I heard about that. I’ve heard the confederate flag many, many years. Uh, even back as a child, uh, I heard about how that wasn’t taken very well with the other slavery in the north and south, but never, I mean never until now was the Betsy Ross flag, which caught me off guard that, that Nike would even listen.

DJ:                                          03:10                     Well, the current problem that some people are saying is that the 18th century flag, by the way, this is from Yahoo Sports, the 18th century flag has raised concerns for representing America’s era of slavery and recent appropriation as a symbol for white nationalist groups like Patriot Movement and Identity Evropa E-V-R-O-P-A, if that’s how you pronounce it, whose public rise has coincided with the 2016 election of President Donald Trump. So they’re basically saying the white nationalists have appropriated the, uh, the Betsy Ross flag. That’s their argument.

Jerry:                                     03:44                     Well, I know that the picture that you gave me earlier that shows the inauguration and that wasn’t brought up then.

DJ:                                          03:51                     Well, describe the picture then. If you are going to bring it up, describe it.

Jerry:                                     03:54                     With the pictures. Basically it is of the inauguration of President Obama and behind him are six flags and on the two outside flags are the Betsy Ross flags. Sorry, there’s five flags a but the two outside ones are the Betsy Ross and he’s giving his inauguration. Therefore he must back this whole prep, this notion of white supremacy, the Betsy Ross flag, which will, I think it’s a bunch of garbage.

DJ:                                          04:18                     Or that (he’s) appropriating and slavery. That could be too. Either way, if Barack Obama did it and was okay, it should be okay for Nike to have I have it on their sneakers and be okay.

Jerry:                                     04:28                     That’s just the first time I’ve heard about this because Trump was elected. This was never brought up ever with this Betsy Ross flag, which is why I’m kind of borderline stunned that Nike would even listen cause this was not an issue. Again, I’m looking at the picture right now and he’s giving this speech. People are standing up and in the far left and right is the Betsy Ross flag. Where was this outrage then? Wasn’t there because it’s ridiculous. I again, I don’t know why Nike would even listen to it unless they understand that this is going to do good for their markets, their profits. Uh, I was also, I was looking on the internet and I found a pair of those shoes for $2,500.

DJ:                                          05:08                     That’s the most, I’ve also seen it going for $2,000.

Jerry:                                     05:10                     So, they have now the people who were fortunate enough to get those shoes and they’re putting them on various websites and selling them, they’re going to profit from it.

DJ:                                          05:18                     Well, what caused that,? This controversy and, and Nike pulling them, now they’re, they’re rare. So the value goes up.

Jerry:                                     05:25                     Correct and if Nike even puts them back on the market, that price from $200 we’ll shoot to $500 and people will buy, we’ll pay it.

DJ:                                          05:32                     In the beginning.

Jerry:                                     05:33                     Correct. And that’s why I think what you’re saying about marketing Nike’s marketing, you may be 100% correct.

DJ:                                          05:39                     Well, this is once again from Yahoo Finance. The sneaker in question is the Nike Air Max One Quick Strike Fourth of July as first reported by the Wall Street Journal, the former San Francisco 49er turned activist believes that Nike shouldn’t sell a shoe that depicts a revolutionary flag of the 1770’s because it hearkens back to a time when slavery existed in the United States. If you pay attention to Thomas Sowell, he’ll tell you that during that time of the, when they were colonies, not yet, the United States, when they are still colonies, just 3% of all the African Americans or African slaves came to the colonies, 47% went to Brazil. I don’t hear any complaints about what Brazil does. Nothing at all. We did 3% and that is a mortal sin, but 47% seems to be okay and ignored.

Jerry:                                     06:38                     That should tell you that there’s a definite agenda behind this.

DJ:                                          06:42                     Not just that,

Jerry:                                     06:43                     It’s not logic.

DJ:                                          06:43                     It’s not just that. If you study the, uh, the Islamic, uh, progression, when, when they took, when they won a war, they took over the, uh, the, the men that were left behind and the women, the men were probably killed, most likely killed. The women were taken as slaves. The Islamicists believe in slavery. They still do to this day. How did, now the question is how do they, Africans get to become slaves. Same process. The Africans went to war with other Africans, captured them, and Africans sold them to America. So how come there are not any moral flaws to that?

Jerry:                                     07:23                     It’s coming clear that that’s their agenda. If that was brought up, made to light. It would make them look like such idiots. So of course that’s suppressed and the media is doing a very good job of suppressing that. No one’s bringing up these other facts that basically prove this just ridiculous.

DJ:                                          07:37                     Well, absolutely slavery is wrong no matter what. No matter and what incarnation it takes, it’s absolutely wrong, but it doesn’t make it right for Brazil to take 47%. And it’s certainly doesn’t make it right for the Islamicists to take, to take slaves to this very day. I mean, the Boca Haram in the Congo in Africa, they take slaves today. Nothing from the liberals on the left on that at all. I don’t hear anything about it.

Jerry:                                     08:02                     Nothing in the media report that because, again, if they did report it, it would make this whole issue here, it would go away and they don’t want it to go away. They want to make every little thing. What I’m getting is everything in the beginning of our country is going to be representative slavery.

DJ:                                          08:18                     Well that that can logically, if you want to be consistent about it, anything from pre-civil war and back has to be a symbol of slavery. And I’ll get into that later. Um, but right now I want to talk about, uh, the Arizona governor. Uh, Doug Doucey, who is a Republican after Nike took their action tweeted “instead of celebrating American history that the week of our nation’s independence, Nike has apparently decided that Betsy Ross is unworthy and has bowed to the current onslaught of political correctness and historical revisionism, Nike has made its decision and now we’re making ours, I’ve ordered the Arizona Commerce authority to withdraw all financial incentive of dollars under their discretion that the state was providing for the company to locate here.” So, maybe their profits are up cause their stocks are up, but they’re going to lose some money from certain, uh, governments or state governments.

Jerry:                                     09:17                     Personally, I’m done. I’m done buying anything Nike. I was actually looking for a mock Tiger, a turtleneck but that’s done. I was even going to pay the 90 bucks for it cause I do like those, but not now. Not, not even going to consider it a, it’s all in the past. So I agree with them boycotting Nike, but others should do the same thing.

DJ:                                          09:36                     Uh, well a minor League Baseball team also trolled Colin Kaepernick. This is also from Yahoo Sports. Uh, the Justin time for July 4th, the AA affiliate of the Chicago Cubs has chosen to stoke the flames of America’s culture wars with a publicity stunt involving Colin Kaepernick, Nike and the American flag. Uh, they tweeted, uh, “hey @Kaepernick7, after a lot of thought, we decided it’s best to just do it.” And they put a, the groundskeepers put the flag on their infield, an imprint of it and then they tweeted a picture of that.

Jerry:                                     10:12                     The Betsy Ross flag?

DJ:                                          10:13                     The Betsy Ross flag.

Jerry:                                     10:15                     Good for them.

DJ:                                          10:15                     Well, yes and no cause then afterwards they came back and apologize for it said if they offended anybody, there were sorry. So good, yes and then they got weak kneed.

Jerry:                                     10:23                     That’s the whole problem they worried about offending people. Right Is Right.

DJ:                                          10:26                     See and even on, in this same article, they’d talk about how the flag is appropriated by hate groups. And in this one they go as far and say that “the New York chapter of the Ku Klux Klan has recently used the Betsy Ross flag alongside the confederate flag for recruiting efforts.” My problem with that argument is (that) they are giving them that power just by, by saying this and not using it, you’re giving them that power, take that power back and be proud of our American heritage, wrong and right.

Jerry:                                     10:57                     Until this issue, I’d never even heard about the Betsy Ross flag being anything related to slavery whatsoever. So yes, you’re, you’re 100% correct. Now that they’re bringing it up, that just going to fuel it. Uh, the attention, the negative attention is just going to the Ku Klux Klan is going to use it to their benefit, especially if it’s with this white nationalism and they’re going to start using it. You’re right. Take it away. Go back to how it was when it was never even a thought. That was just a ridiculous thought of anything.

DJ:                                          11:21                     Now, both Kaepernick and Nike have the right to do with what they’re doing. I have no problem with, with them doing what they’re doing. They have the right…

Jerry:                                     11:29                     Absolutely, it’s their business

DJ:                                          11:29                     However, I think Kaepernick is wrong on this issue. Totally. Because it’s not a symbol of slavery. Even if it is being appropriated by certain white nationalists that doesn’t make a symbol of slavery. And besides, if we go to Nike, I see we go back to our first episode, it’s pragmatism, rearing its ugly head again. The end justifies the means and they’re willing, they’re basically wetting their fingers, sticking up in the air and thinking, well, if this will profit us, we’ll do it. If they thought it wouldn’t profit them, they wouldn’t do it.

Jerry:                                     12:02                     Right. If they see their profits go down, who knows if they’ll make the turn on it, but they absolutely are appealing to the masses, uh, and the most of the ignorant and then they get rewarded for it as if they’re some compassionate, uh, company when they’re not. They’re part of the, what I’ve heard many call the evil corporate giant. That’s what they are. Yet they’re doing this to placate to those people so they don’t come after them. This is why I’m done with Nike.

DJ:                                          12:27                     Well, do you think as possible at Nike is doing it to avoid a black eye?

Jerry:                                     12:29                     No. Again, if it was a confederate flag, I’d go, okay, I get it. But the Betsy Ross flag? No, and Colin Kaepernick bringing it up just out of the blue just to raise his attention. And the more I think about the more, I’m kind of leaning towards you. It’s just a, it was like the classic coke and new coke thing and they did it knowing full well of the outrage and I’m sure Kaepernick discussed it with Nike.

DJ:                                          12:52                     I have a (history) problem with the confederate flag too. That flag is, is not a slavery flag. What it is, is the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It’s their banner. That’s all it was. It was. And the guy who in fact, Robert, uh, Robert E. Lee didn’t have any slaves and Stonewall Jackson who was the reason the south was winning before his death, he was totally against slavery, but he was pro Virginia and he was going to fight for Virginia no matter what the decision was. So the two top guys weren’t even slave owners.

Jerry:                                     13:31                     That is something I was ignorant to, which means now that confederate flag was just smeared. And taken down to where the masses actually went against it, to where it’s been removed literally from everywhere down south. There’s a couple of states I think that are holding steadfast and they’re calling them the racist states now. So…

DJ:                                          13:45                     See I think that is the appropriation. That they are appropriating that flag as a symbol of slavery when it never was.

Jerry:                                     13:51                     No, I agree. Now that I’ve been informed. Correct. Your 100% right.

DJ:                                          13:55                     So, I think it’s not just the Betsy Ross flag. I mean I’ve even heard of things, have you ever heard of the Bennington flag?

Jerry:                                     14:03                     No.

DJ:                                          14:03                     That’s the flag, it’s to blue background with the stripes white and red stripes. But in the blue field is 13 stars in the 76.

Jerry:                                     14:15                     Okay. Yeah

DJ:                                          14:15                     I’ve heard that flag is also a symbol of racism when it isn’t. Also the classic a “Don’t Tread On Me” flag, the Gadsden flag. Now he was a slave owner but he was also fighting against, he wanted to end slaves just like Thomas Jefferson. So just because he was a slave owner doesn’t mean the flag represents slavery. In fact, it represents, get off me, don’t tread on me, leave me alone. And that’s what should’ve been applied to black Americans as well.

Jerry:                                     14:45                     Which is what the 13 colonies were telling England, leave us alone with the tea tax or just get away, which I completely agree with ’em and I don’t like that it was being represented with slavery. The don’t tread on me flag that was just completely incorrect. But yeah, you’re, they’re taking this and they’re going to get every single mile as they can, as long as it works, they’re going to keep on going forward. He’s going to take somebody to stand up and say you are wrong. Now Nike, the business decision, I don’t know if they did this as a business decision and it was just flat out to make money. That could have been a good call. Uh, but if it was done for Colin Kaepernick and the, uh, his, uh, so-called cause, then no, they’re wrong. So I have them know that their, their inner workings, if they really meant to do this and then Kaepernick came to them and brought this up and they pulled it then they’re wrong

DJ:                                          15:33                     I guess. Good is relative here. Uh, good for their bottom line. Yes, but not good for philosophical reasons.

Jerry:                                     15:40                     I agree. Correct it’s a good business decision, you know, that’s what it was. Yeah. Pragmatism to the core. But they, they, you know, their profits which they satisfied that whatever needed their shareholders.

DJ:                                          15:52                     This is one of those rare times where it’s explicit brought out where sports and politics cross and the reason that it happens, that is because this is a sports ethic show. Well your politics is derivative of your ethics, your politics is derived from your ethical principles. So, and this is one of those times where it’s just out there glaring for everyone to see.

Jerry:                                     16:18                     I think you’re seeing Nike’s political

DJ:                                          16:20                     and ethical

Jerry:                                     16:21                     I was going to say and ethical was coming from that. What you just said. I think that’s coming to light right now.

DJ:                                          16:26                     Absolutely. And it shows that, I just don’t think my biggest problem with this is the lack of principles, lack of standing up. They could if they were going to do it in the first place and they released some of it cause it’s out in the secondary market, if there were going to do it, they should have stood by their principles and say, no, we’re going to do it. We’re going to let the chips fall where they may. I mean they have the right to pull back any product. I think I read also they did this in China because uh, the maker of a (Chinese) of the shoe that they were putting out in China was all for that. You know, the, all the riots are going on and in Hong Kong right now?

Jerry:                                     17:00                     Yes

DJ:                                          17:00                     The riots are because of the laws that are going to extradite people from Hong Kong to China. Well the guy who made that, those shoes was for that law. So China, I mean, so Nike pulled that shoe. That to me is on principle, but they’ll do that. They’ll stand on principle for that, but they won’t stand on principle for the Betsy Ross flag and say, no, this is not slavery. And just because you say it is.

Jerry:                                     17:25                     No, I, I completely agree, but this is where you have to draw the line. I know Nike’s motto is just do it and you really now, yet I have to say just don’t do it.

DJ:                                          17:31                     They just didn’t do it. They pulled it back.

Jerry:                                     17:33                     And now it’s don’t do it. Don’t do it. Meaning don’t do it. They pulled it back and then don’t do it. Don’t buy their products. Just flat out don’t buy their products. It’s like, there’s a, there’s a couple of morning or one morning show for sports talk radio that I just will not listen to. Don’t care what they’ll talk about. Don’t care who they’re guest are. I just will not listen. Same thing with Nike now. I will not buy their products and others and to do the same thing that that’s the only way they’re going to get this.

DJ:                                          17:59                     Well, once again, I want to say that Kaepernick has the right to to say and believe every he wants to say as, does Nike have the right to do this? I just think they’re both at the very least misinformed at the most politically or philosophically incorrect.

Jerry:                                     18:15                     They can be as wrong as they want to be.

DJ:                                          18:17                     Absolutely, I totally agree with that. Now, Kaepernick then went a step further and tweeted an out of context quotes from a speech by Frederick Douglas.

Jerry:                                     18:30                     He’s been doing that a lot lately.

DJ:                                          18:31                     Yeah. Yeah. Well he’s trying to, he’s trying to appropriate Frederick Douglass into his argument and his quote was, this is from the blaze. His quote was, “what I have”, or this is the quote from Frederick Douglas Actually, that Kaepernick tweeted “what I have or those I represent to do with your national independence this 4th of July, of yours is yours not mine. This is not a nation on earth. There’s not a nation on earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody then are people of these United States, at this very hour.” He took a little tiny excerpt from that speech and once again appropriated it for his,

Jerry:                                     19:15                     To back his cause.

DJ:                                          19:17                     Yeah, to make his argument better, but thankfully Ted Cruz came out, um, Republican senator from Texas and he responded, uh, to Kaepernick by saying, “you quote a mighty and historic speech by a great abolitionist, Frederick Douglas, but without context. Many modern readers will misunderstand. He went on. Senator Cruz went on to explain this speech was given in 1852 before the civil war when the (abomination) of slavery still existed thanks to Douglas and so many other heroes, we ended the grotesque evil and have made enormous strides in protecting the civil rights of everybody. Douglas was not anti-American as Kaepernick is painting him. He was rightly and passionately anti-slavery. Cruz continued. He concluded the speech as follows. “Allow me to say in conclusion, notwithstanding the dark picture I have this day presented of the state of the union. I do not despair of this country. There are forces in operation which must inevitably work the downfall of slavery. The arm of the Lord is not shortened and the doom of slavery is certain. I therefore leave off where I began with hope while drawing encouragement from the Declaration of Independence, the great principles it contains and the genius of American institutions. My spirit is also cheered by the obvious tendencies of the age.” Kaepernick did not put that in his tweet at all. And notice he even brought up the declaration of independence, which they are now saying is a slave, uh, appropriating or, or backing a document, which isn’t true.

Jerry:                                     21:00                     First, how convenient for him to leave that out? And of course he would because that would make his argument look like a complete idiot. And the more we speak, the more he is looking like that. But a, you had pointed out a couple of days ago to me, um, that Thomas Jefferson pretty much abolished slavery, except when you just like today’s politicians and politics are negotiations going on. And if we wanted this country to go forward, Ben Franklin knew enough that they’re going to have to compromise. And give into two states and as those two states that I’m not hearing any blame for cause that’s what kept slavery going. Had they agreed to the, uh, original Thomas Jefferson Declaration of independence where all men are created equal, it would have been done right then and there.

DJ:                                          21:43                     Yes, Jefferson did want to abolish slavery in the original draft of the Declaration of independence and the committee was a John Adams Jefferson. I think John Jay can be wrong about that. And Benjamin Franklin and when it came to, to talk about so much, not just that with scratch out of his, his original draft and one of the major ones was slavery and it was, uh, the Carolinas that threatened to walk out and they needed an absolute union and they did the vote needed to pass 13 nothing. So that threat of them walking out would have ruined everything and there would’ve been no nation whatsoever. So they had to compromise.

Jerry:                                     22:22                     Correct it. It’s what Benjamin Franklin was smart enough to realize what had to be done. It’s just a shame how that isn’t brought up at those two states. If you really think about it, go back in time and they basically go along and they don’t hold out and we get this, the original declaration of independence, the world’s a lot of different, a completely different, it probably would have avoided this. The civil war is what you were bringing up. So that was a huge mistake by two states, but they don’t receive any blame either.

DJ:                                          22:51                     The civil war I think was caused by that and I think Georgia also followed, followed suit once they were convinced the Carolinas were going to do that and that just made it all unravel.

Jerry:                                     23:00                     It’s called momentum But yeah, I could see that. But the whole point being as it would’ve been a completely different union had they had agreed to it, uh, the slavery would have been done right then and there.

DJ:                                          23:08                     Oh, I don’t think there would have been a civil war had they had they done what Thomas Jefferson wanted in the first place and now they’re even trying to say that Jefferson, because he owned slaves and his slaves were inherited from his wife when his wife’s father died because he owned slaves that therefore he should, he, he’s no good, which is totally wrong because he was a man of principle and even so he wanted to set his slaves free. Even if he wanted to, let’s come home with that premise. He would’ve been breaking the law. It was illegal at that time to educate slaves and it was also illegal to set them free. So he would have been breaking law had he done what the people are accused of not doing.

Jerry:                                     23:48                     It’s tough to realize, but it did look it was wrong, but back in that time it was a completely different time. In the 1700s, 1600s, it was accepted. I’m not trying to justify it, but that time and this time just would collide. They just would not coexist. So therefore, I mean, I completely understand. Back in that time, it was just accepted and again, you brought up the Brazil, how many they kept and I haven’t heard anything about that or how many slaves they took. Um, again, it’s just the different times and you can’t really compare the two that that was accepted to where when you go over the overtime that we’re at now, look at the forties, 50s, 30s. How we’ve changed a philosophically, ethically, completely different in night and day. And now it’s getting to a point of complete ridiculous to where some of our, uh, the ignorant are being indoctrinated into the, this ridiculous, what I’m talking about right here, the Betsy Ross flag equaling slavery, which it does not white supremacists, it’s all garbage.

DJ:                                          24:46                     They are so anti-white right now and went to forgetting the fact is there were no black senators and congressmen when slavery was ended. Every single vote for it was done by a white person. Every single one.

Jerry:                                     24:59                     They’re not going to bring that up because I’d make them look bad. This is all basically to look to make, again, as soon as Trump got elected, that’s when I really heard of the white supremacist all the time and it’s really getting tiresome now. To where I’m almost tuning out.

DJ:                                          25:13                     There’s the Pragmatism right there, the justifies the means and the end is get rid of Trump no matter what and they will do anything. Say anything. I’m bringing up things that just so untrue about him. Like I am not a Trump supporter. There are some things he’s done that is just totally wrong. Like for example, the tariffs against our allies. He was just wrong. He was, I think he’s right for doing it to China because they’ve been stealing our technology for years, decades, but to do it against our allies, I think he was wrong about that and that’s not the only thing I think he’s wrong about, but the point is they will say and do anything just to get rid of him, the end justifies the means.

Jerry:                                     25:49                     I’m going to agree and I’m going to bring up a point back when Obama was first elected, no, I was not happy, but I was told respect to office and the president and I did.

DJ:                                          25:57                     Not only that, if you said anything against him you were accused of being a racist cause he’s black.

Jerry:                                     26:00                     Right? But I was told respect it. He won, the majority voted him in and I did. That doesn’t seem to be the case now to where the masses are not respecting the fact that the majority wanted Trump, whether they like it or not. And they did that to themselves. It’s a whole different story. But just because Trump won, now they’re like little babies crying and doing exactly what I was trying to do when Obama got elected. I was wrong. But now they are correct. This is all confusing.

DJ:                                          26:27                     Right now the Democrats are also saying about the uh, disenfranchising of the voters, but what are they doing when they want to take away the legitimate vote of the people that voted for Trump? I didn’t vote for him. I didn’t vote for Hillary either. I wouldn’t vote. I said at the time, if you vote for Hillary, you lack a conscience, if you vote for Trump, you lack intelligence. I have both. But what are they doing to those voters that voted for Trump? They are trying to disenfranchise them.

Jerry:                                     26:57                     They’re making them look like idiots and bringing them down for the mistake. They made it. I think it’s only getting worse because it comes approval rating is going up lately. I mean it was down for awhile there, but now it’s just going up. And I think the Democrats are kind of doing that to him.

DJ:                                          27:09                     So, if it’s true that the flag represents the era of slavery, well then anything from that era would represent the era of slavery

Jerry:                                     27:20                     If you go by that logic, you are correct.

DJ:                                          27:21                     So, I have a list of all these inventions that if we are logically consistent or if Kaepernick is and those who follow him, these, these are our symbols of slavery as well. Now I have to start off by prefacing this by saying, and it wasn’t until July, 1833 that slavery was abolished in England. So even these, these inventions that were invented by Englishmen, we’re still symbols of slavery. For example, in 17,22 French C Hopffer for patent invented fire extinguisher. Every time you want to put a fire out, you’re, you’re promoting slavery. Uh, Joseph Priestley in 1767 invented carbonated water. Every time you have a, a pop, you’re back in slavery.

Jerry:                                     28:08                     A Bublé

DJ:                                          28:09                     yes, basically, uh, James Watson, the steam engine in 1769 how about this one? And 1775, Alexander Cummings invented the flush toilet. So every single time you use the facilities at your house or at a public restaurant, you’re back in slavery.

Jerry:                                     28:27                     If we go by Kaepernick, you’ve got to ban those and we should go to the outhouses.

DJ:                                          28:30                     Okay. Then of course, now those were, those were Englishman. Uh, of course we have a Benjamin Franklin who invented bifocal glasses. So they are the precursor to our current progressive glasses that I currently wear. So therefore

Jerry:                                     28:44                     Can’t use those.

DJ:                                          28:45                     Can’t use those, the self-winding clock in 1783 by Benjamin, uh, Hanks just can’t use that anymore. Uh, the smallpox vaccination in 1797 and then a year later and a 79, eight, the more vaccinations, uh, by John Barber, all vaccinations must be a symbol of slavery,

Jerry:                                     29:07                     A slavery issue. Correct.

DJ:                                          29:08                     Uh, we’d go, we can go further. The steam locomotive, uh, invented by a Englishman, George Stephenson can’t use locomotive, which is now we have engines, not steam, but still can’t use it. It was a precursor.

Jerry:                                     29:22                     Before that, it was rowing by hand. So that made a, a improvement on our life. But you’re correct. Can’t use it.

DJ:                                          29:27                     In 1819 Samuel Fahnestock Patents the Soda Fountain and an 1832 John Matthews invented a design that would make artificially carbon water more cost effective. There’s really where the, uh, the pop gone once again, the electric motor in 1821 by Michael Faraday, uh, the first mechanical computer designed by Charles Babbage, who was an Englishman, but still that is a precursor to our computer. So if you’re using a computer, it must be a symbol of slavery. Uh, John Walker in 1827 invented modern matches. So there goes matches. Uh, here’s a good one. In 1834, Jacob Perkins in American invented the refrigerator. Every single time would go to refrigerator very, now you’re backing slavery. Uh, so there also 1835 Morris code was invented by Samuel Morris. Uh, the revolver was invented by Samuel Colt, 1835. Here’s one that goes directly to sports. In 1839, Charles Goodyear invented the vulcanization of rubber. You know what that is, right?

Jerry:                                     30:36                     The puck, hockey puck,

DJ:                                          30:37                     hockey puck. So therefore every single hockey game must be a symbol of slavery according to Kaepernick’s logic.

Jerry:                                     30:44                     I think it demonstrated the ridiculousness, but I’d like to hear what our listeners have to say about this list and if they agree with this Betsy Ross flag and please, we would love to hear from you so we can continue this conversation. And even if you like, call in be a guest to one of our shows to discuss this in depth because this is something that I think the society needs to talk about because it is wrong and when wrong is wrong, it’s got to be brought up and you can’t do any anymore. We were raised to where if we made a mistake, there are consequences. There are consequences for this, but I don’t think Kaepernick, Nike or really, that whole agenda is actually seeing those.

DJ:                                          31:18                     I just want to reiterate that by using the argument that the white nationalists are appropriating it, you’re giving them power by not using the flag, take the power back from them. Don’t allow them to have that power. Use it for what it’s worth and it’s a representation of freedom, all men, freedom, black, white, all of us.

Jerry:                                     31:38                     For me to close, I will say they’re not going to do that because if they did, they couldn’t use it against the white nationalist. They want to just highlight what idiots the white nationalists are. And by doing that, and they’d come out with using the flag, they can say, you see, that’s what, that’s why they’re doing it. And they’re getting away with it.

DJ:                                          31:52                     You don’t need to do it to take the flag. Give them the flag to point out how wrong they are.

Jerry:                                     31:56                     Agree. I agree. Don’t get it.

DJ:                                          31:58                     I disagree with (doing) that.

Jerry:                                     31:59                     That’s the method behind the their madness

DJ:                                          32:00                     Their method is wrong. It’s pragmatism. Anything they can do. I think this is while I already said earlier, it’s all against Trump and if they’re all, they will, um, put Trump in with that group of white nationals to try and get and make him look bad and get them out.

Jerry:                                     32:13                     Anything to bring Trump down. I completely agree. It’s wrong.

DJ:                                          32:17                     So I just want to remind everyone that you can get in touch with us at GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. Our website is Follow us on Twitter @GrandDesignsPod. Instagram is @ GrandDesignsPodcast. This is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 21 – A Split Season and the Ethics of Physical Fitness Transcript

Announcer:                        00:00                     You’re listening to the Podcast Detroit Network, visit for more information.

Jerry:                                     00:20                     This is Grand Designs Podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand. We link to chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

DJ:                                          00:36                     Thank you very much for tuning into the Grand Designs Podcast. I’m Dj Grand and I’m here, as usual, with my brother Jerry.

Jerry:                                     00:42                     Hello.

DJ:                                          00:43                     Uh, today we’re going to be talking about a couple issues. The first topic we’re talking about is the Tampa Bay Rays and their possible splitting home with a a Canadian city.

Jerry:                                     00:57                     Well, this has got the making of the owner who doesn’t want, he can’t get fans to come down and come to the games. It’s empty down there every single game. So He’s, he tried to get a new stadium. The government and council city council turned him down. So now he really has no other, he can’t threaten to move. So I think this is his way of trying out different city and he’s got, still got to get a stadium built, but if he gets attendance in Montreal, this is just a prelude to a move.

DJ:                                          01:23                     That could be, it also is that he really can’t move right away. That lease doesn’t run up until 2027.

Jerry:                                     01:30                     I don’t know if there’s a buy out for the lease, those leases are made to be broken, especially with what the Florida Marlins did. Cause that owner pretty much, uh, he had an all star lineup, got the new stadium and then the very next year, once it was passed the law, they had the vote. He gutted that team. And Florida has not forgot about that. Even though it’s in Miami, they’re holding Tampa Bay hostage, the fans in Tampa Bay remember that. And again, they’re not going to the games now. They can’t sell out. They came and get 11,000 down there. So even building a new stadium, I think he realizes he has to move the franchise. They’re worth $200 million. So he’s losing money when he’s not having fans come to the game.

DJ:                                          02:07                     Well, just to give a little bit of an overview, this is from USA Today, “Major League baseball has given the Tampa Bay rays permission to explore the possibility of becoming a two city team, Commissioner Rob Manfred said Thursday at the owner’s meeting in New York. Though the plan would face several significant hurdles, the Rays would split home games between Tampa and Montreal, which is approximately 1500 miles north of Tampa. Under consideration is for the Rays to play early in the season in Tampa and later in Montreal.” I also heard that they were going to do it based on seasons when it’s, when it’s warmer, they’ll pay in Tampa and when it’s colder they’ll play in Montreal,

Jerry:                                     02:48                     it’s cold in the beginning of the season and if they make the playoffs. It’s cold at the end. So they played games in October, November. If they go that far. So they’re not going to get it from the coldness.

DJ:                                          02:57                     Well they, if they play it in the south, if they play deep in the season.

Jerry:                                     03:04                     Correct. But again, the be on the, I don’t think they’re good at what I have to wait and see how they break it up. I’m thinking I’m probably thinking too concrete here, that they’re just going to a 41 games home games, Tampa Bay, 41 games in Montreal that they’re not saying when and where these games we played, they could split that up. I feel sorry for the players because they really want to have a home. But yeah, I guess they could do that to where in the beginning they’re down in Tampa and at the end there in Tampa, although I don’t know how they will, uh, hand that trophy out if they were to win it. That’d be a little difficult.

DJ:                                          03:33                     Well, feeling sorry for the players. I don’t so much, but I do feel sorry for their families. I mean they’re going to be losing their family for half (of) the seasons.

Jerry:                                     03:40                     Correct. But I don’t know how many, but they are being paid a major league salary. I’m not sure what the minimum salary is, but I think it’s a quarter of $1 million. That’s still a lot of money.

DJ:                                          03:48                     Well, part of the problem is the actual park itself.

Jerry:                                     03:53                     I heard it’s bad.

DJ:                                          03:54                     The park is in a bad location on the wrong side of a long causeway and catwalks, speakers and other obstacles that make it unwielding for watching or playing baseball.

Jerry:                                     04:05                     It was described as walking in, seeing the ocean, seeing the beach and then walking into a Costco was to watch a baseball game. That’s how it’s described it be being that bad, being that blah, I guess there’s no entertainment. I don’t want to say, uh, concessions or whatever they have booths that are not adequate for, I guess a Little Caesars has right now. But I hear just old and it’s not a very nice stadium.

DJ:                                          04:29                     Well, there is some draw because even though there are virtually empty now, uh, the Rays previously switched a three game series against the Texas Rangers to Champions Stadium at Walt Disney World where there was only 11,000 seats. So they could sell that one out easily. But they did sell it out. That means 11,000 people, at least came to see them.

Jerry:                                     04:49                     Yes. But when you put them, when you put them in a 35,000 seat, cause this guy’s got a sell out 30 35,000 to make us money.

DJ:                                          04:58                     Well seating capacity, they changed it now it dropped from 45,000 to 25,000. Right now in, in the, in “the Trop” they call it, you can only get 25,000 in there. So it’s all the most, the max you can get in there.

Jerry:                                     05:09                     Watch, the Games, that stadium is more than half empty every single game. So I am curious to see what they draw in Montreal. That would be very interesting.

DJ:                                          05:20                     Uh, do you think they’re going to actually do this? You think I’m right now there’s too many, there’s a few hurdles I have to overcome, as I read. But do you think it’s going to actually happen?

Jerry:                                     05:28                     This is the owner trying to, uh, I don’t know. He’s trying to not always being slick, I don’t know what he’s doing or asking major league baseball for help. But this is definitely a prelude to a move. Unlike the NFL where they just pick up and go, I think this guy is trying to test the market. Will Montreal have a draw? If they have a draw, will they build a new stadium for him? What kind of deals can he work out if he gets those things from Montreal, I think he’s up and gone.

DJ:                                          05:52                     It could be a race because both cities now need a stadium in order to accommodate him. And whoever gets the stadium bill first could be the winner.

Jerry:                                     05:59                     Yeah. But evee if Tampa Bay builds a new stadium, he’s having a hard time bringing the people there.

DJ:                                          06:04                     Not, if, like I said, he, he brought a few in at Walt Disney World,

Jerry:                                     06:07                     They brought 11,000 in

DJ:                                          06:07                     well that’s all they could fit in there.

Jerry:                                     06:10                     Okay.

DJ:                                          06:11                     So it’s possible if with the proper stadium, something that’s more than just baseball and bring them in.

Jerry:                                     06:18                     I’m just going to disagree because I think there’s a draw for the baseball down there. Uh, Miami’s getting killed and they had a, again, they had a good team and then the next year they got gutted after they approved a stadium. The government for Tampa Bay saying there is no stadium, but then I have to ask if you’ve got a stadium, why would you stay there? The people aren’t coming. Even with the new stadium, they will not get over 12,000. He’s got a hit but 20, 25 to make his money.

DJ:                                          06:42                     Well it’s working against them also is the fact that that gets so much spring training baseball in Florida, a lot of teams go down there and then they leave and so they get their, they get their uh, their thirst quenched of baseball and then then you’ve got people moving back up north so they’re not there anymore to, to watch the games.

Jerry:                                     07:01                     Arizona, well they have the cactus league and I don’t know how Arizona is doing in the Diamondbacks if they’re doing pretty good or not with attendance, but this all boils down to attendance and numbers and him making his money. The franchise is worth $200 million to keep that worth up he’s got to bring people to the park. So again, I just question, I don’t think he can bring in the 20,000 on a regular basis. Look, they’ve had a championship team and they still haven’t draw. Even in the playoffs, the stadium’s empty. I just don’t think they have the draw. And he knows. I think he realizes that. He got to no from the government. So now it’s what other city can I move to? Why he picked Montreal? That I don’t understand.

DJ:                                          07:36                     I think because they’re thirsty for a team or they’ve been out since 2004 without the Expos. So I think there are thirsty for a team and, and that thirst could make them fill up a stadium and give him the profits he’s looking for.

Jerry:                                     07:49                     Now, hat’s all he wants to basically fill a stadium up. And if he can take that team anywhere and fill it up, he’ll make money. And that’s the whole goal. He has that team too. He’s a businessman and the day he’s a businessman, he’s got to make money.

DJ:                                          08:00                     Well there’s also higher Canadian taxes too, but if you make enough that might offset it.

Jerry:                                     08:05                     No, I agree. But again, it’s going to boil down to the numbers. And again, I really think he’s just setting it up to where he’s testing the waters. And once he gets his results or his data, he’ll make his move. And if Montreal doesn’t work out, he will try a different city with, uh, the commissioner or Major League baseball. In other words, find me a place where I can move and be profitable. He’s not, I don’t think he’ll sell the team. That’s the last-ditch effort. But again, he’s a businessman.

DJ:                                          08:30                     He doesn’t need to sell a team. He can find another place.

Jerry:                                     08:32                     Yeah. But if you can’t find that place and it teams not drawing and they’re losing money, you’ve got to cut your losses at some point.

DJ:                                          08:39                     If Montreal was at least interested or at least a viable place, he, they wouldn’t even be thrown it out. He wouldn’t have even thinking about going. They have a chance to get another city by Montreal.

Jerry:                                     08:48                     They did their homework, which while they pick Montreal. So I think, um, I’m going to just to see what happens. But if they, if they fill up more 25,000, you will see Tampa Bay moving.

DJ:                                          08:58                     Okay. And then the other question is, did they stick with the Rays which wouldn’t be a suitable name in Montreal, or do they go back to the Expos?

Jerry:                                     09:02                     No, they’ll go back to the Expo’s. It’s like the Browns and Cleveland kept that name.

DJ:                                          09:06                     Washington Nationals which Expo’s used to be kept Nationals. That used to be the old-time teams.

Jerry:                                     09:10                     So I, but I’m guessing, but I would assume they keep the Expo’s, but maybe they’ll rename it. There’s a bunch of ways they could go, but I think they’ll keep the, bring the expos back cause they do miss it.

DJ:                                          09:19                     All right, well to segue into our second topic. Uh, we’re going to be talking about the fitness industry.

Jerry:                                     09:25                     More so about the ethics involved in the fitness of these clubs that we go to. And most people, obviously it’s to lose weight and around January 1st they make their a new year’s goals and they want to lose weight from the holidays and the eating. Uh, so they go to the gym to uh, basically there’s two reasons. Most of the time it’s a dating scene. They’re not there working out. If you go there between three o’clock, and I don’t care what club this is from Bally’s to Lifetime, so all the new ones that are out there now, even Powerhouse, it becomes to where they’re just, they’re just flirting and talking And either way it becomes a dating. If you’re there seriously, you’ve got to get there early in the morning or late at night to where you can get at these stations and do the workout. Now if you hire a personal trainer, and I’ve seen many people hire a personal trainer, it took me a while to figure out, but first, let me go back. I’ve been going to Bally’s, Vic Tanny to Lifetime. I’ve had memberships, I’ve been working out for a long time, never got the result that I was looking and many times got frustrated and gave up. But the personal trainer, I noticed when I was working out, if would they tell you everything to get you that beach body? Like they claim come in during January, February, March, and by the beach season you’ll have the beach body. Which is clearly not true.

DJ:                                          10:38                     Well, there aren’t going to tell you enough to make the sale and to get you to come back.

Jerry:                                     10:41                     See, that’s my point. If they told you everything for the beach body, you wouldn’t come back. They would not make money. I even questioned, it took me a while to figure it out, but after I worked out at Lifetime, I’d walk out and they have a nice little shop. They’d have protein shakes and these protein shakes were almost to where I learned you can never outwork your diet and that’s what was happening. You’d work out, get a good workout in. They go out as you exit, they’ll give you a protein shake and you put that all back in. It’s no different than working out and then going in fast food afterwards.

DJ:                                          11:12                     Well, protein isn’t the problem is it? Isn’t it carbohydrates?

Jerry:                                     11:15                     Those carbohydrates that are in the protein (drink), the sugar that uh, what they add to make that a protein drink flavor and they have all different kinds of stuff in there. Even when I left, and it was a while ago, even had a cake and I don’t know if this was a weight loss cake, but it still to work out and then go have any kind of that kind of complex carbohydrate. It’s a good thing, but not every single day or right after a workout. When after a workout is basically a, uh, a muscle, a protein drink which focused on proteins and low carbs, high proteins. But that gets us into the personal trainings are or who they there for? Are they helping their clients? Now, sure they want to come across as being helpful, but the really out to make money for their company and they’re only going to tell you what you need to get you to the next day. It’s kind of hard to keep you motivated because it’s hard to stay motivated and disciplined. And I’ll define discipline is doing the right thing when no one’s looking because you’ve got to keep doing it and that includes your diet. And I said before, you can’t outwork your diet. Some people think, and I’ve seen people do this, the office works, uh, office meetings. They’ll bring a dozen donuts and Bagels, what have you, and the grab the Bagel and say, oh I’ll just do, I’ll walk a couple miles tonight. Well first off, that couple of miles is not going to do anything for that, donut you just ate. And number two, you’re not walking a couple miles extra. You’re just saying that psychologically calm you down. It’s okay to have that donut then. When really, you shouldn’t have it, period. You should just walk away cause you cannot outwork your diet. Now there is a regimen to where a cheat day you’ve heard of cheat days, correct?

DJ:                                          12:45                     Absolutely.

Jerry:                                     12:45                     Okay. That’s when, and this doesn’t give you permission to gorge on fruit loops, but you basically shock your body. If you YouTube Dwayne Johnson the Rock, you will watch him on his cheat day. I may get the numbers off here, but I believe it’s 42 pancakes, 24 extra-large pizzas for lunch and his dinner is also ungodly. That’s a cheat day. And I’m not sure that’s once a month. I do my cheat day every two weeks.

DJ:                                          13:10                     My god, 24 pizzas?

Jerry:                                     13:12                     Yes. Extra-large. Watch him on YouTube and he eats every single bit of it. But the point is it’s, and even explains, it’s to shock your body, but you can tell your body basically to keep it on its toes. So it just gets rid of it right away. So with that, is diet important?

DJ:                                          13:28                     Absolutely.

Jerry:                                     13:28                     It’s 90 it’s, it’s 90% of the Gig. Because if you watch now and it took years of just different workouts and then watching TV, the Nutrisystem Diet, you’ve seen those commercials. Correct. And those, and I think even some medical weight loss clinics, they advertise, you don’t have to work out. It’s your meal. And what, what did they do differently from the meals? And these are cheeseburgers, fries and brownies and apple pies, all that stuff that you really can’t have. So how are they doing?

DJ:                                          13:56                     Well, medical weight loss, I know they give you a drugs, so it’s not just like…

Jerry:                                     14:00                     it’s almost like speed pills up your metabolism. Okay. But at the end of the day, the Diet that they recommend, I even think of the Medical Weight Loss is a lower carb diet. The trick I find you’ve got to get rid of the carbs, you (have) to get the carbs out. Now I’ve talked to doctors that I have access to, not my own physician, but I work in the healthcare industry and there’s a couple of doctors too and a Dietitian that I gave my diet too. And my diet basically is I will not, I’ll do my best not to go over 20 carbs. And there are days, yes, with 25 and sometimes 30 stressed out. Do you want to eat it? Don’t know what have you. But that’s only once every two weeks. Mainly I’ll do it on a every other Saturday and I’ll really carve out and again, it keeps my body, it keeps it basically on top. It shocked to buy to wear, doesn’t get lazy. It doesn’t get in a routine. With that being said, you have to, basically, the doctor told me you can do a low carb and 20 carbs is people freak out that you got. I’ve had people, nurses telling me, Oh, you’re going to kill yourself. You’ve got to have more carbs than that. The doctor said No. If you lower your carbs, you got to have the fats. So have hamburger, have the chicken, have Turkey, don’t inject it and don’t put any mayonnaise and don’t put any toppings on it. There’s where your carbs come in. Now, I was challenged to go basically was not in zero carbs and zero sugar for nine days. That’s impossible. I went shopping looking, you’re going to find carbs. Uh, but if you go into you, you give your own diet. You’ve got to know your body. You have to know your system to where I say 20 carbs a day. If I don’t go over 20 carbs, and the main killer of that is bread. You have to eliminate bread. Now, a lot of people when I speak to them that that’s a deal breaker. Now I should probably start off to, first of all, you go to the gym, you go because it’s, you want to do it. You have to be happy with yourself. Your self-esteem should not be around your waistline. You want to go to the gym because you want to improve yourself, not because somebody else tells you to. You have to want to do this. If you don’t want to do this, you will not do it. If you don’t want to give up bread, you will not. You will give a bread when you decide to.

DJ:                                          16:02                     That’s like quitting smoking cigarettes. You’ll quit when you decide to.

Jerry:                                     16:04                     It’s the same thing. Exactly. You can’t go cold Turkey when you do go cold Turkey is because you’ve just decided that you’re done. It’s like any, uh, raising your kid and you tell them, don’t go there. Don’t go to that ravine. People drown there and they still go when they, they’ll stop going when they finally realize and decide it’s not a good idea. I digress. So you have to find out what workout now is best for you know your body. And I’ve tried all different kinds from free weights to bands to resistance and the free-weight was heavy weights, heavier weights to build your muscles, which is three sets, 10 reps, maybe the last set being 12 or you could reverse that in the last set being eight lesser increasing the weights as you go to each rep and each rep, you take a little bit of a break, which turns into who knows how long and then if you know someone at the gym, you talk, you just even get longer and just never got the result until I went to what’s called a zone progression training. Now that basically, Owen McGibbon, he designed it and he basically, I loved what he start off the bat, the long recumbent bike, the treadmill is garbage. You don’t need it, and that’s true. Now if you’re not going to lift the weights, then yeah, you do need the treadmill. That’s only going to be the only activity. There’s where I go back to yet to find out the fitness program for you, but I started going to the Lifetime. It was about 10 years ago and I was looking for a home gym from Chuck Norris’s Nordic track to all of our bands. I did find one that finally again zone progression training. It’s called The Rack. I’m not going describe it to you cause it’s a little bit difficult to describe. It’s a very nice workout station that I used at home and I found out within the matter of six weeks, I noticed a definite difference in my physique when it came to uh, more or less of the fat just went away. The toughest part was the belly and the s going to be always tough for everybody, especially on a professional athlete. But that’s where it came into the carbs because to cutting the carbs out as really and being hydrated. I did find out, and I read this book that basically said when you eat, your body will do one of two things. It will either burn as energy or store it as fat. That’s the only choices. It will do one of those. If you are hydrated, it will burn as energy. If you are dehydrated, your brain will tell your body to store it as fat because you are dehydrated. So the most important thing is to be hydrated and drink water. Yes, it’s recommended 10 cups a day, but there you go again. You really got to get to know your body and with any diet you really should talk to your physician because what you may be planning, and even if your doctor says don’t do it, I would get a second opinion just because he’s your doctor. I know you respect them, but hear another opinion out there. Because there are other diets like, and what I’m talking about is pretty much like the Keto, but I’m just basically trying to eliminate all the carbs. And for example, I did not know and I love Ketchup, but ketchup has 11 carbs, mustard has zero carbs. So I’ve just cut out mustard altogether.

DJ:                                          18:59                     You mean you cut out ketchup.

Jerry:                                     19:01                     Yes, I’m sorry, ketchup altogether. I’m just putting mustard. Now, the hamburger. I also found out, and I this really got me in my thinking was, uh, there’s a website flab to abs and there the brothers, they guarantee that you can go from flab to abs and their claim has washboard abs in 30 days. Couldn’t figure out. And this was not really, I think they do an exercise program, but it was more or less the Diet. You can eat cheeseburgers, you can eat French fries, like the Nutrisystem, they’ve sucked the carbs out. But I still don’t know about the bread because the bread is the, that is the number one thing with the carbs. So you eat the bread, you’re just loading up on carbs and you cut the bread out. You’ve cut your carbs almost down. I would say two thirds of your carbs are in bread, hamburger buns, hot dog buns, sesame seed. Um, the only bread that I’ve heard that you can, uh, as good for you as whole grain. But at the end of the day, I go back to, you’ve got to be hydrated. And when you eat any kind of sponge bread, it absorbs the water. So if you drink your 10 cups a day and then you have bread along with that. You did not drink 10 cups cause that bread absorbs that water and your body is still dehydrated. So at the end of the day, the first thing you must do is be hydrated. Find a program. Now, listen first, if you like to go to the club and you’re a social person and that’s for you, great, go ahead find that club. I’m not necessarily recommending the personal trainer because you can do it on your own with motivation. Again, I don’t think those personal trainers are going to tell you unless you have one on your own. That’s a personal one that comes to your house. He made me a little bit different. He may actually ride you like a military drill sergeant because you need that push to actually keep exercising. And then the hard part is when you go home after you work out, do you adhere to that diet? Because again, you can’t outwork your diet. Do you eat those King Dons at night? You know how many people have come to me after I’ve shared my diet with them and they come back. Your Diet doesn’t work and right off the bat I’ll tell him this is after a couple of weeks. It’s not my diet first of all, but you had King Dons, you had Twinkies, she had cereal, you had something that that’s why it is and if not you need to go the doctor. You may have a thyroid problem. There could be a medical issue, which is why I say go to your doctor. You know, weight loss isn’t just lifting weights and running. If you work out, you don’t lift weights. I mean you don’t lose weight. You need to go the doctor be, there may be something wrong, that’d be the first sign, but if you want to do this and you’re serious and you can be disciplined doing the right thing when no one’s looking for your own self and not say self esteem but you aren’t achievement. When you look in the mirror, have that diet with the carbs and you need to look. Basically, it’s your body weight and your body fat. Their scales out there that’ll give you the body fat, your body mass index along with your, uh, your weight. Um, they’re electronic, but don’t, don’t weigh yourself every day, once a week. Weighing yourself every day you get kind of overall, what is it? Over compulsive or over obsessive to where you just don’t want to do that and it’ll get demotivated even once a month weighing yourself wouldn’t hurt. But the point being is you need to pick out your workout and I highly recommend the Rack and if you follow his workout, and the one that I like is called the fat shredder and it does shred fat, if you adhere to the Diet. But I’ve never had a workout where you go 32 minutes straight and I mean straight, you get a couple of breaks where you’re just doing these, he calls him a Muay Thai (knees) you’re just lifting your legs up and you just trying to catch your wind, but then you’re right off to another exercise and it’s zone progression training.

DJ:                                          22:18                     That’s probably to bring your heart rate down.

Jerry:                                     22:20                     Okay. But as you bring it down, you’re off to another. And he does shoulders bi(ceps) backs. There’s one exercise where he’ll tell you you’re, you’re almost using every muscle in your body. Then the next one is a three component and he’ll basically say, you are now using every muscle, literally every muscle in your body. So with doing that 32 minutes, I have never felt so exhausted and got the best result when I was done. Now after that, it’s a protein shake within 20 minutes. You’ve got to replenish that. But you can’t go to Burger King. You can’t. And I’ve done that. I found out the hard way that that’s how I learned, You can’t outwork your diet.

DJ:                                          22:58                     You brought ethics of fitness. Well. What about the gyms? Especially the one that says no judgment when that’s bull crap because they do judge.

Jerry:                                     23:07                     Well, yes, I, my personal friend of mine has been lunked and that’s the lunk alarm because you dropped the weights and he’s a bodybuilder and he actually, he was real real physiqued. Another one of my friends went in there just to show his close friend a workout regimen and they basically lunked him because they don’t want you to show anybody, they want their personal trainers. The problem is they are not a judgment free zone. They just, anyone that’s in shaped women, men and you wear anything tight, they’re judging you and you are making the other clients feel uncomfortable because for some reason they think if you go in there and you’re (in) good shape and you were tight yoga pants and you know the tight shirt, that you’re making, the other people judge themselves so you can’t be there.

DJ:                                          23:58                     See those gyms, they need an epistemological housecleaning. They even judged people who they want to be there. They’re judging everyone. In order to say you fit, you’re one of us, you’re judging that.

Jerry:                                     24:10                     That’s my whole point, it’s is not a judgment free zone. They are, they’re the one organization that I will not even, and they’re very affordable, $10, but because of that judgment free zone, when they will judge you, if again, anyone in good shape go in there with a tank top, uh, a sleeveless shirt for the males and the ladies, I mean, I remember the commercials, they have the commercial and when the ladies and the, uh, the uh, locker room getting changed and they were all beautiful, but they had yoga pants on and those, uh, 80 workout tops and they basically, and of course the other, the client for Planet Fitness who was a little overweight was in the shower and feeling bad about themselves because she didn’t look like that. I mean, that was a commercial that are basically telling the people who are in shape, this is not for you. This is for the people, and this is how I look at it, who are not in shape, never want to get in shape, but want to keep coming here just to feel good about themselves. So, they don’t have to, I don’t know, they don’t want to be judged when they walk outside, but that’s pretty what I boils down to that you can’t judge me because I’m still, I’m working out, I’m doing the best I can.

DJ:                                          25:16                     I also see a problem with their business model because eventually if you stick to a program and go there, you are going to become into that category where you are going to be judged and ruled no longer fit to work out there. So they’re losing customers. They’re hoping that they don’t continue their workout, that they do cheat, so there’ll always going to come back. They’re always going to be there.

Jerry:                                     25:37                     Yeah. That’s the whole point. Yeah. They’re not going to, they’re not going to to where my, my idea of a fitness club is the exact opposite of what they’re doing. They want, yes, they want you to do, they’re not going to yell at you because they want you to come back. They know if you eat that King Don, that’s one more week of a working out that you need because you didn’t lose that weight to where I will do a little bit different that. If I had a health club. You’re either a victim or you’re a victor. I need to define that real quick. A victim is, it’s not my fault. Woe is me. I don’t want to see Arnold Schwarzenegger because he makes me feel bad about myself because he looked so good. The victor is Arnold Schwarzenegger. The person that goes out there works hard, has discipline, eats a proper diet. Now again because they want to and if you want to live a life of eating a potato chips on the couch, that’s fine. I’m talking to the ones who are in Planet Fitness and don’t want to be judged. They’re a victim. If you worked out with me for 90 days and you did not have any results, you’re out. You don’t come back. We don’t want you here. It’s almost like in karate. When we took karate and we went up and we’ve seen those large, and you could walk in and say, that guy’s good. That guy’s good. Wow, he’s really good, Bruce Lee, that guy sucks just because of he was in shape. I mean he was out of shape; you know the belt that he was tied, little tiny things at the end because he couldn’t tie cause his belly was so big. That guy was a victim. That was a self-esteem award. So victors, there are victims at Planet Fitness. Now the other ones I can’t, I can’t claim to.

DJ:                                          27:04                     I think it’s an indictment of our, our current society because we live in a victim psychology society. To where, don’t offend me, don’t say anything that’s going to make me question myself. I mean that’s our society now.

Jerry:                                     27:17                     That’s the exact problem to where I don’t really think it’s a big deal, but I’ll, when it’s hot outside at work, moving furniture, I always wear an undershirt, sleeveless to keep cool. And I don’t know how many times. Yeah, I get compliments, but I’ve been told to put my shirt back on. Has my mama raised me any better than that to have respect for myself and I’m just showing my shoulders and biceps and it’s not even to show them. It’s because it’s hot outside. I, I’ve heard it from both ways. So I, I get that person who was offended because I don’t have the, I can do that. I don’t look like that because I don’t put your shirt back on.

DJ:                                          27:49                     I don’t understand what you mean by get them. You understand what, what they’re coming from because I don’t understand that.

Jerry:                                     27:54                     Yes, I just want to come. I don’t understand it, but I know why they’re doing it because they don’t have those that that physique.

DJ:                                          28:01                     They’re jealous.

Jerry:                                     28:02                     They don’t have the physique because they don’t, they don’t want anyone else judging them. Here we go again. That this person right here is a Planet Fitness customer, period.

DJ:                                          28:11                     Why do they care? Honestly, why do you care what other people think? Just move on.

Jerry:                                     28:15                     Now, that’s what I said, just started this all off. It’s the discipline part of don’t let your self-esteem be around your waistline. If you want to lose weight, do it. If you don’t and you’re happy, then don’t do it. Be Happy. That’s the whole point of just be happy. Now, I can also give you a six to seven eating habits that will uncover or take away the fat from your belly without even lifting a weight. But I will do that on an upcoming podcast. If you reach out and get a hold of us and tell us that you want to hear it or disagree or agree with what we just talked about as far as fitness or any other subject matter. And you can do that at…

New Speaker:                    28:46                     Well. You can get in touch with us. Our website is a Our email address is GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. Our Twitter handle is @GrandDesignsPod and you can get in touch with us on Instagram @GrandDesignsPodcast. Uh, thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. Uh, this is the Grand Designs Podcast. Who are you listening to?

Equality in Sports Revisited

What does it mean when those who claim to be marginalized by society want equality? On the surface this seems like a fair proposition. Yet upon a deeper examination, equality is a commodity that hard to accomplish outside of the courtroom, where everyone is, ideally, equal before the law. Once again, it seems fair but the modern-day application of equality comes well short of being fair. The question that needs to be asked, yet seldom is, is fair to whom?

  Dodge ball has taken a hit to the crotch (yes, pun intended) inside school gymnasiums of late. Some Canadian researchers have come to the conclusion that dodge ball is a “tool of oppression” that can be used to dehumanize children and manifests inequality when teams are picked by the superior athletic kids, creating unbalanced teams. This research sounds like it was written by those who weren’t very athletic and are taken their opportunity to lash out at being chosen as one of the last for a team. The Wall Street Journal’s Jeff Yang once said that dodgeball “is a systematized opportunity for bullies” to target the weak. This same accusation could be leveled against baseball when, usually in youth baseball, the weakest are relegated to right field and can be a target for good hitters going after the weakest link in the field of play. A little closer to the truth, dodge ball is about winning and should teach kids how to compete, regardless of size or athletic ability. Canadian journalist Joseph Brean, paraphrasing David Burns, said,

  “The moral problem with Dodge Ball is that it encourages students to aggressively single others out for dominance, and to enjoy that exclusion and dominance in victory.”

   This veiled cry for equality can be applied to just about every endeavor in life, from business and academics to all other sports. Does Microsoft have a moral problem when they put out a superior Windows program that dominates the market allowing it (Microsoft) to enjoy the exclusion of that victory. When smarter kids dominate in academia and bask in the glow of their superior grades, do they not enjoy “exclusion and dominance” in that form of victory. Turn to sports and the comparisons are close to endless.

  Transgender athletes, mostly male to female, are claiming inequality just when someone vocally opposes their participation against biological females in sports, let alone when rules are established that prohibit such unfair competition. Unfair to whom? The biological females. CeCe Telfer of Franklin Pierce University is a college hurdler born male but now competing as a female who recently won an NCAA women’s national championship, taking the 400-meter hurdles by more than a second. According to the battle cry against inequality in dodge ball stated above, doesn’t Tefler enjoy the “exclusion and dominance” in the victory over biological females? Tefler was interviewed by ESPN’s Outside the Lines and said:

  “(I)f anything, me competing against cisgender females is a disadvantage… My body is going through so many medical implications … It’s going through biochemistry changes. So, being on hormone replacement therapy [results in] muscle depletion … your muscles are deteriorating. You lose a lot of strength because testosterone is where you get your strength, your agility. So, I have to work twice as hard to keep that strength, and if I slack a day, that’s like three days set behind. So … I have to keep up all my workouts … I can’t drink … I can’t eat unhealthy, or else it’s gonna impact me harder.”

  Literally everything Tefler said can be applied to any training athlete who slacks for any period of time. Returning to consistent peak performance will require even more hard work. Besides, transitioning from men’s hurdles competition, with the higher hurdles, to women’s hurdles, with its lower hurdles, would alone give Tefler an advantage without even considering physiological aspects like bone structure, muscle density, etc.

  Finally, and thankfully there is some legal pushback against those like Tefler and other transgendered athletes from competing against biological girls.

  According to CBS News:

     Three Connecticut girls who have run high school track have filed a federal discrimination complaint saying a statewide policy on transgender athletes has cost them top finishes in races and possibly college scholarships.

    “Girls deserve to compete on a level playing field,” said Christiana Holcomb, legal counsel for Alliance Defending Freedom. “Women fought long and hard to earn the equal athletic opportunities that Title IX provides. Allowing boys to compete in girls’ sports reverses nearly 50 years of advances for women under this law. We shouldn’t force these young women to be spectators in their own sports.”

    The complaint filed Monday with the U.S. Education Department’s Office for Civil Rights was submitted by the conservative Christian law firm Alliance Defending Freedom on behalf of the girls, who are asking for an investigation of the policy and orders that would make competitions fair. The complaint also cites the federal Title IX rules aimed at equal rights in sports for female athletes.

   One can only hope that that ideal of equality before the law actually exists.

   Another example of transgender (male to female) exploitation of non-transgendered biological competitors happened when Mary Gregory, a transgendered weightlifter, competing under the RAW Powerlifting Federation, was stripped of all titles after winning nine out of nine competitions, which included setting a new Masters world squat record, open world bench record, Masters world deadlift record and Masters world total record.

  In this writers opinion, the RAW Powerlifting Federation was correct to take away the titles because, according to Paul Bossi, the federations president:

  “It was revealed that this female lifter was actually a male in the process of becoming a Transgender female…Our rules, and the basis of separating genders for competition, are based on physiological classification rather than identification.

  On the basis of all information presented to the Board of Directors for this particular case, the conclusion made, is that the correct physiological classification is male.”

 Transgendered exploitation of biological females stopped in its tracks.

In a free society, outside of the context of equality before the law, equality is virtually impossible, including the US Women’s Soccer demand for equal pay with the men. Someone will be a better soccer player than another. You can be a better writer than me, while I can be a better athlete than you. There’s only one place in the real world that one can visit to get the equality they are looking for. At any graveyard where everyone is equally dead.