Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 19 – NFLPA Causing a Work Stoppage in 2020 Transcript

 Announcer: (00:00)
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Jerry: (00:20)
This is grand design podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand. Where we link the chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

DJ: (00:36)
Welcome back to the Grand Designs Podcast, episode 19. Can’t believe that many of them. Uh, just let you know how to get ahold of us, our website is, email is You can follow us on Twitter @granddesignspod and Instagram is granddesignspodcast. Um, today should be a short podcast, but uh oh and just to introduce us, I’m DJ Grand and I’m here with my brother Jerry.

Jerry: (01:07)
Good day

DJ: (01:08)
and take once again, she’d be a short podcast. First, we’re going to talk a little bit about the NHL Officiating in the current Stanley Cup playoffs.

Jerry: (01:18)
Yeah, I think we’re going to discuss the game five of the Stanley Cup finals. When the Blues, uh, a call was not made. I personally, after watching it, I didn’t see it live, but seeing the next morning, oh, replay after repay after replay, it was not a penalty. The refs did not make a mistake in that. So this whole thing while Boston getting upset, yeah, they (didn’t) have it go their way. But the Blues also had to go their way when they played San Jose, they had a very bad penalty go against them. That was actually a penalty. It was a hand pass. Didn’t get called to shrugs. Won that game then the Blues came back at won in the series.

DJ: (01:56)
Well actually this call went against Boston. Boston guy was tripped and then Saint Louis end up scoring the goal. Perron ended up scoring the goal.

Jerry: (02:02)
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It wasn’t even a penalty. So I, I don’t include this in a bad call cause it wasn’t a penalty. Uh, if you watch last night’s game, Marchand tripped. He took his knee, stuck it out and right into the leg of the guy against the boards and the guy went backwards. That was a trip. This play, the Boston player was skating backwards. The Saint Louis player was looking away, skating forward and they collided. It was not a penalty. Now the Saint Louis made a mistake.

DJ: (02:31)
You’re responsible for your stick. That’s the argument. And his stick did get under his skates.

Jerry: (02:36)
again. Okay. I didn’t see that part. I was looking at the leg cause they were saying it was a trip. They didn’t say anything with the stick again. Yes you are responsible. But you know we played hockey how many times that the idiot skating tripped over our stake. It wasn’t us sticking a stick in there and I’m, I’m going back to that, that this was not a penalty now. It wasn’t a penalty on the Blues, but they, the guy himself, he acted like he was going to get a penalty and it was reaction when didn’t get call was even was even worse because I think he was surprised it made it look like it was a penalty. It was in Boston. The Boston fans went nuts. Yes, I would agree that hey look, Boston had a goal the other way when they got a gift of a non call and now they’re complaining about it. But the coach, he was just, hey move on. You know, the next game. You know, fortunately it wasn’t game seven. He had a good point and now I kind of think that they’re actually going to pull this out because Saint Louis is that they’re too close to do something they’ve never done before. You could tell that, not last night. Well before that they were asking the players “did you sleep?” And for all three nights, every player on Saint Louis, “no, hardly any” there too giddy. The Cup was, they would bring out the cup was there. It was at their grasp. So they’re just too giddy about it.

DJ: (03:42)
One thing to the advantage is they are a better road team, which seems ironic, but they seem, in the playoffs, to be a better road team, but as you were saying earlier, it went for them and the San Jose series and I think I interrupted you, it went for them in SanJose

Jerry: (03:53)
It went went against them in San Jose.

DJ: (03:55)
San Jose hand passed it, That’s correct. You’re right. And went against them and

Jerry: (03:58)
Correct task and then they got the goal that lost the game

DJ: (04:01)
That’s correct.

Jerry: (04:01)
After that they said the same exact thing that Boston is saying right now. Put it aside. I remember it was game two or three put aside, they came back and one of those next two games, I think they won it in six a so they closed them out there. They didn’t let, uh, San Jose didn’t win after that. This could be the same um, case where the so called non penalty and now they’re going to lose the next two games.

DJ: (04:20)
Well here’s my problem with it is Boston’s complainant saying, I hear it all the time. “Let them play. Let them play.” So when the refs actually do let them play and don’t make the call, Boston’s up in arms. It’s a contradiction.

Jerry: (04:34)
You know they let them play last night, like Marchand, sticking that leg out. Uh, that wasn’t letting them play. But yes, seen that there’s where it gets into the home team. Look, they could cross check, how you broke your neck, and they’re going to say, let them play. Cause this, the home team, they won. The winning is so important now, but it doesn’t come with a, I don’t know if I’m gonna use this word correctly, chivalry where they don’t care about, you know, let the guy get back up again. It’s almost like UFC fighting where they just jump on and pound and pound, but it’s gone to the point to where now it’s cheating and breaking the rules is okay if you don’t get caught, if you’re not cheating, you’re not winning all those cliches. But now in our culture it’s coming out to where literally a, you didn’t make that call. How outrageous. Ah, that’s the Boston fans complaining about it when just the series before they had to go their way and they were, “you know, hey, that’s the way it is. You know, man up.” On the next game. Yeah, different story. I agree.

DJ: (05:26)
Correct. But the last thing I want to say is when you officiating say they don’t want to be the problem, they don’t want to be the cause of the outcome of the game. But sometimes a non call is going to cause the outcome of the game like this one did.

Jerry: (05:38)
That’s their mistake that they should. They should really just say, look, if it’s a penalty in the first minute, it’s a penalty in the last minute. It doesn’t matter.

DJ: (05:45)
There’s my biggest problem with NHL and hockey in general is there’s no consistency. If it’s a penalty in the beginning of the season, it should be a penalty on the playoffs too and it’s not. It’s two different seasons as far as

Jerry: (05:56)

DJ: (05:56)
penalties are called.

Jerry: (05:57)
That’s got to stop until that stops it. That’s you’re going to have these kinds of issues all the time.

DJ: (06:03)
All right. Moving onto our second topic. It’s we’re, we be talking about the NFL possible players stoppage after the current CBA runs out.

Jerry: (06:11)
Yes, before my brother gets into specific topics about it. What I will just say is to all you NFL fantasy players out there who love playing fantasy football, you looking forward to your draft, you’ve done your research. You better do a good job this year because it’s going to be your last for a while. I really believe, and you can go back and play this a year from now, that this podcast’s episode, that this strike is going to be a long one. It’s going to replicate the NHL, where they lost a whole year and the union is literally, they are coming out and they’re giving all the warning signs that it’s going to be a long strike and we can get into why it’s going to be a long strike right now.

DJ: (06:49)
Well first of all, it’s, there’s two sides of this. Anyone who on the NFL side is basically saying “No, no, we’re going to renegotiate. It isn’t, it’s not a problem”, but on the player’s association side, they’re warning their players to save that. It could be a stoppage and then they’re going to need the money.

Jerry: (07:04)
The NFL came out and said, we’re in current negotiations right now, which the contract is for the 2020 season. So yes, this is 2019 of course they’re in negotiations right now. They are so far apart. I know of one major issue. You’ve got a couple of others that it’s literally they’re out to set an agenda for this negotiation of this contract. Um, to go ahead.

DJ: (07:28)
Well, just to show how far apart they actually are. The uh, president of the NFLPA, Eric Winston, he tweeted, “any conversation with NFL owners will be a renegotiation for a new deal, not an extension. At our board meetings we told everyone to prepare for a work stoppage. Nothing has changed.” And that was March 26, 2019. They’re saying it’s probably going to stop.

Jerry: (07:55)
Yeah, I’ve heard, um, I think more DeMaurice (Smith), I don’t know his last name. He is the, uh, I think the president (Executive Director) of the Union Association and he came out and said, save your money and you tell the players now to save their money. The problem with that is you’ve got the rookies coming in next year. You’ve got the rookies coming in this year and now they’re going to save their money. And I don’t know how many times you’ve heard when it comes to money issues with the, uh, professional athletes they got Lamborghinis. Do you know the insurance costs for Lamborghini that justifies the million dollar salary. So he’s coming out and telling his constituents right now I represent you get ready for a long strike. I agree it’s going to be a long one. Now I read an article that they’re planning to literally imitate, like I said earlier, the NHL, they want to lose a whole a whole season, but they’re out for one major issue, which we’re going to get to. But I’ll let you start with the other issues first.

DJ: (08:46)
Well first or they’re looking at guaranteed contracts.

Jerry: (08:50)
Not going to happen. Uh, which sports guarantees that are contracts right now? There is one sport. I don’t know if it’s baseball or basketball that guarantees the contract, but this will not happen in the NFL because how many times does a player step on the field? Uh, and I will give a name that Detroit fans know, (Jahvid) Best on or hope it’s (Jahvid) Best, hope I’m saying his name right. He’s a running back four or five years ago, was drafted out of California. Had a great first rookie season. I mean he lit it up. They thought they had the replacement to Barry Sanders. The very next year, he blows his knee out. The NFL is not going to guarantee that contract. They’re not guaranting contracts. Not going to happen.

DJ: (09:28)
A side issue that is the franchise tag. They’re talking about redoing or at least changing some of the franchise tags.

Jerry: (09:35)
Now, that I agree with. They need that needs to be changed but that’s not, that won’t hold up this strike, that will not be the issue for the players holding out. But the franchise tag is a problem with the NFL and the players. Uh, although Kirk Cousins made a lot of money because of that franchise tag, a lot of money

DJ: (09:52)
and it also caused Le’Veon Bell to sit out for an entire season because of the franchise tag. So it goes both ways.

Jerry: (09:58)
There’s where the flaw (is) because they’re based on the top five salaries of the current contracts of your position. Le’Veon Bell was not even close to the second, third, fourth, and fifth person. So that average all those in, I agree with him. But as it all came out, he’s not getting any more money for the Jets than he would’ve (been) offered with Pittsburgh. He sat out, he did not, he did not gain anything from that.

DJ: (10:20)
Well maybe he did it on principle.

Jerry: (10:21)
The only thing he gained was leaving the team. That’s the only thing he gained. It was no financial reward for what he did. Now we’re running backs are paid different than quarterbacks. They have a different even lifespan. The average job or life that are running back, it’s like three and a half to five years and they’re out of the League quarterbacks a little bit longer and I think even offensive lineman lasts long. Defensive Line is not that long. Linebackers are not that long. They get hurt. So I get the security they’re going for.

DJ: (10:47)
The average of players in the NFL careers for years.

Jerry: (10:50)
Okay. They’re not going to get a guarantee contract because some of these contracts are for like Stafford’s contract going to pay him 26 million this year, 30 million coming up and I think that was a six year deal.

DJ: (11:00)
Well, another part of the money is rookie contracts because all of like Stanford, when he came in and they signed him to a big contract because he was, well the number one pick and now they’re talking about somehow readjusting that.

Jerry: (11:14)
They’ve already done that.

DJ: (11:15)
And they’re going to do it again.

Jerry: (11:16)
Because now it was to where it was outrageous to where you had, I’m not sure if Stafford was in this class or not, but you had rookie quarterbacks coming in never taking a snap and they are going to make more money than a veteran players based on what their projection was. Number one pick in the draft. They then uh, the NFL reclassify that where there’s rookie contracts now. It really benefits the owners and the teams because Baker Mayfield, uh, he’s under contract now for the next four years at a very dirt cheap price because the rookie contract.

DJ: (11:48)
Well, the NFL did this the teams won’t hurt themselves, which is…

Jerry: (11:51)
That’s the whole point.

DJ: (11:53)
I mean, let them hurt themselves. They did it, that they’re doing it, they’re agreeing to the contract.

Jerry: (11:57)
The owners say, yes, sign it. They can’t complain about it. That’s the problem. They have to control themselves and sometimes they can’t. It’s that old adage that uh, like for example, you had the owner of the Kansas City Chiefs who let a Kareem Hunt go and the Brown’s owner picked him up right away. So you’ve got one owner, you know, doing the right thing and then another owner is, he wants them, doesn’t matter about his character. What he did don’t care. I won a championship. So again, what other owners will pick them up? So you’ve got that owner to thinking, well, if I let them go, this guy’s going to pick them up so that that’s in the back of the head, but I can give back to the contract. They’re not getting a guaranteed contract. That is that, that won’t be the hold up either. That will not be the holdup for this contract.

DJ: (12:35)
I agree. I don’t think they’ll get it either. The next, uh, issue is reduction in broadcast revenue and the reason they’re doing, uh, looking at that it’s not because of ABC or NBC or all those big networks is because Twitter and Amazon, I think it was Amazon that got or paid it was Amazon pays 50 million and Twitter pays 10 million per season and that they’re talking about could change the dynamic of the revenue,

Jerry: (13:03)
When you say reduction in broadcasting, uh, revenue

DJ: (13:06)
they want, they want the NFL players association wants to reduction of it, that

Jerry: (13:12)
they want less money or they won’t.

DJ: (13:14)
Let me read it. This is from ESPN in 2017 television rights fees have been the largest driver of the NFL economic explosion in the past decade. But recent upheaval in the broadcast and cable industries and overall ratings dip in 2016 has prompted a fair question. Will the gravy train end? If it does, it’s unlikely to come in this, the latest window contracts with CBS, Fox, NBC and Espn will run through the 2021 season. The NFL already has begun transitioning to over the top Internet broadcast partnering first with Twitter and then with Amazon. And like I said, Amazon was 50 million and Twitter payed 10 million per season.

Jerry: (13:55)
Okay, so that’s 60 million to or ESPN, ABC, we’re paying 300 million, right?

DJ: (13:59)

Jerry: (14:00)
Okay, well that’s, the money isn’t coming in, the players are going to get less.

DJ: (14:03)
The players. Well, if the 50 million, I mean that’s, they’re getting more to, the players are going to want to dip into that.

Jerry: (14:09)
That’s not gonna happen because the others are going to make them one and they have their profit margins. So that’s not going to happen.

DJ: (14:14)
The whole point is that they, they think they’re making more money so that players want some share of that. I mean, I didn’t, uh, I think the, the players gave up, they were less than 50% of the revenue sharing. Um, last time they were 50% before and then I got just below 50% and now with this increase of more money they’re getting, they’re going to be wanting more money out of that.

Jerry: (14:33)
I heard reduction in revenue that looks like it’s going to be an increase in revenue because they’re going to get more money streaming

DJ: (14:38)
Reduction in broadcast revenue because no longer ABC, Fox.

Jerry: (14:43)
Will they make more streaming it?

DJ: (14:45)
Who knows?

Jerry: (14:45)
See that’s the whole thing. The NFLs gambling though, because the precedent hasn’t been set yet. I mean the ABC contract go through 2021 this contract is 2020 and I could see them waiting until the new contract is signed because if ABC signs a 300 million ESPN, then yeah.

DJ: (15:03)
It could also be that the Twitter and Amazon sets a new standard and Fox and all those goes up as well.

Jerry: (15:09)
So you’re going to have, you’re going to have to wait and see what happens, but okay. I really don’t. That’s, that’s a wait and see kind of thing because how do you know how much revenue is coming in the future? Now, I know. We know what ESPN is paid, we know about the streaming, but yet that’s a way the streaming is a way with the future. Cable’s going to go out the door.

DJ: (15:25)
The next is officiating and basically computer or computerized officiating.

Jerry: (15:29)
Not In football. You can’t not, not in football. Can’t do it. Baseball, yes. Football. No.

DJ: (15:34)
Well, according to the same article behind the scenes, the league has reached the possibility of placing gps like chips and footballs on goal poles and on the goal line

Jerry: (15:45)
Now, Okay, that I could see, but that’s just going having a human official on the field and then it just goes up to the booth to whatever that chip says. You know? Or if a light goes off when it crosses the goal line is a touchdown. Yeah, that I can see. I thought they meant like in baseball replacing the ump with the computer box.

DJ: (16:02)
Eventually that could happen. I mean, as it, as the technology develops, eventually that could happen. I don’t think this is the start of that,

Jerry: (16:09)
But I don’t think it’ll ever replace a human ref because you’ve got to have that ref throw that flag on holding. Now. Now you’re talking computer chips in their jerseys.

DJ: (16:17)
Not just that. Well like I said, once the technology advances, they could have the computers looking for those holdings and and maybe every, if it, if was reality, every play would get a flag.

Jerry: (16:29)

DJ: (16:29)

Jerry: (16:30)
I’ve got to say that’s got to hold off until the technology gets there. For them to even bring that up in negotiations.

DJ: (16:35)
It’s going to happen in little steps. Those, like I said, the GPS is…

Jerry: (16:38)
The first step is…

DJ: (16:38)
very well happening. Yeah.

Jerry: (16:39)
So the first step is the goal posts in the end zone. Okay.

DJ: (16:41)
Okay. Uh, uh, there’s two more issues. It’s player supply changes. Uh, there’s anecdotal revelations earlier in the decade in the decrease of Pop Warner participation, presumably a result of concussion concerns from parents. That decrease has not yet manifested at the high school level according to the latest numbers from the National Federation of State High School Association. So it will take some time to impact the NFL, but there is a problem, at least here in Michigan. Um, according to the Michigan High School Football Coach Association, the Michigan High School Athletic Association Representative Council passed a bill that prescribing the following limitations. I’m full contact practices. In season reduction from 90 minutes per week to 30 minutes, which is next to nothing. They’re not gonna be able to improve their skills whatsoever, let alone learn how to, to tackle and to get tackled. Preseason reduced from three hours per day plus scrimmages, to total of six hours per week. Thinking about that from three hours per day to six hours total per week, how are they going to be able to improve their skills…

Jerry: (17:49)
That’s three Two hour practices.

DJ: (17:50)
on the High school level?

Jerry: (17:50)
No, they won’t. Well, to make it even worse? There’s a some, I don’t know if it’s national or if it’s local, but they’re trying to outlaw tackling for the pop Warner up until…You can’t play tackle football until you’re in high school. Now that goes through, we’re in trouble because they’re going to a lot of injuries dealing with and then you’re going to get into not being able to do practice or the hours, it’s all the concussion. They’re trying to stop and I get it, but to take the physicality out of football and then they’d play flag football for Pop Warner and then when you get to high school you’re starting to hit, they’re not gonna know how to do it, how to protect themselves. They’re the training, but even these regulations will make it even harder.

DJ: (18:27)
It’s going to make it worse, they’re not going to be able to, like I already said, learn how to tackle it and how to get tackled and that is going to cause more injuries and then there will be less people wind up play football because of it.

Jerry: (18:37)
Mark Cuban said, I think a year ago the NFL will not be in existence in 20 years and I think he’s right.

DJ: (18:42)
Well this isn’t because the NFL, this is because of the high school.

Jerry: (18:45)
That’s the whole point. It’s the whole (CTE), the brain. I work with someone right now who basically if his son wants to play football, yeah. Okay. But he is not any way going to move them to that. He’s not going to suggested at matter of fact he doesn’t want him to play. And that’s just one. It’s not, I haven’t had, it was different because he wants to play a Lacrosse as that’s just, that’s just as rough. Hockey’s just as rough too. So what are you going to put them in?

DJ: (19:09)
I was just thinking the CTE problem isn’t going to carry over to the NHL too. You’re going to, they still have concussions in the NHL.

Jerry: (19:15)
But it’s gonna be the death of the NFL because they don’t want the tackling the collision. Now 10 years ago, that whole collision, the safeties coming up and going that head to head, that was the main draw of the NFL. It’s gotten to where now it’s going the opposite direction. So I think Mark Cubin was going to be right. So that’s something that’s going to be, uh, down the road. It’s going to hurt the NFL. I don’t think it’s going to hurt the, uh, if it comes up in the negotiation, it is going to be more of a development. The skills won’t be there in drafts down the road.

DJ: (19:44)
They’re planting the seeds right now because those seeds are going to grow. You’re not goin to have players.

Jerry: (19:48)
Correct, exactly.

DJ: (19:50)
The last issue that’s really going to affect the current CBA is the disempowerment of Roger Goodell.

Jerry: (19:56)
This is it. This is the one that’s going to be the backbreaker. Everything else will be settled and okay, but they,, the player’s union wants to literally make Roger Goodell powerless or the commissioner himself. Now back when Paul Tagliabue was the commissioner, there were people that were kind of voicing their opinion that he needed to come down on the players. He wasn’t being stern enough. He wasn’t being that principal to keep the players in line. You had all these offsite in, uh, off field, off site, off field issues. Uh, an owner, um, was doing things that, uh, it shouldn’t be done. So they’re literally going to Tagliabue, “you’ve got reign these players, get control”. He retires and in come’s Goodell. If you remember from day one, Goodell brought the hammer down from day one, the Tom Brady deflate gate put it over the edge to where even as Ezekiel Elliot in the domestic dispute, whatever Goodell’s pet punishment is they took to federal court, they weren’t going to accept his ruling. They want the ruling out, and again, it didn’t matter if Tom Brady was guilty. It didn’t matter if Ezekiel Elliot was guilty. It was basically the union trying to tell the NFL he’s not going to basically discipline our players.

DJ: (21:04)
That’s my problem with the union in the larger aspect, not just football, but in the large aspect union, they don’t care about justice. It look, I agree, was standing up for rights. That’s I, anyone who stands up for rights, whether it’s workers or playing football, I get that, but you’re not standing up for rights when someone beats someone. It’s on tape in an elevator and then the union defends them. That’s not standing up for rights. That’s just defended them for the sake of defending (in) my mind.

Jerry: (21:31)
Back in the 20s and early thirties when GM and even Henry Ford had those horrible working conditions that wouldn’t even fly with OSHA today. I get it. I understood completely what the union was trying to do, how they went about it was a different story, but I get the whole safety and the wage, you know these, they call them titans of industry. They were making a lot of money off and just paying these people and it wasn’t a really a living wage, so I get it back then. That isn’t the case now. Now I can tell you personally from 30 years of health care industry where the union has gotten there more than their feet wet. They’ve come in and they have no clue. This is the UAW who went into a nursing home and represented the nursing home workers. They have no clue how a nursing home, how people are taking care of. This is not making cars on the auto industry. In the auto, basically, if someone has a drinking problem, you can’t fire them. You got to rehabilitate them.

DJ: (22:27)
Once again, they don’t care about justice. That’s my biggest problem with the Union they had justice does not even in their paradigm.

Jerry: (22:34)
That came in with the health care that it wasn’t about someone who abuses a resident, can’t fire him. You’ve got to, you know. No, no, no. You have to cause other people out there who basically aren’t being, they’re being abused too, but no one’s catching them. So, the union was trying to protect these people and yet the care was going down. So it almost goes down to where the union is just trying to make a power struggle that they don’t want the NFL to discipline their players when the union themselves, they don’t want to discipline their employees.

DJ: (23:03)
They want to go to arbitration and if anyone bought Roger Goodell.

Jerry: (23:07)
But my thing is, again, and I’m going to use Ezekiel Elliot was a difficult one, but Tom Brady and the deflate gate was clearcut. They busted him. He cheated period and the union didn’t like him coming out with four games. And how long did that, did that drag on when it could have been just hey, serve your time. It’s over. That went for about two years into the courts until he actually s and he’s still served the four games. The NFL got exactly what they wanted. It just went a longer route and because of this, the union did not like how they came out with pretty much mud on their face because they didn’t do anything for Brady except the only thing that they did did the same thing for Ezekiel Elliot. They dragged out the suspension. And here’s my problem. Jerry Jones was more or less backing it because he didn’t want to see him suspended for six games. He wanted his star running back on the field. So this is an owner who basically is employing Goodell and wants Goodell to basically discipline these players. But in this aspect he’s basically, no, no, no. It’s my team, my team, my team.

DJ: (24:08)
That’s pragmatism. The end justifies the means.

Jerry: (24:09)
We’re just, we just talked about how these, these owners can’t control themselves and Jerry Jones was a classic example and he was coming out and it was set because Roger Goodell, he was almost saying he was agreeing with the union only because it was his player Ezekiel Eliot. Again, the facts of those was a domestic abuse case that never got tried. The charges were dropped but Goodell basically went to punishing him anyways even though we wasn’t found guilty in a court of law, just like currently with Tyreek Hill, that’s not being pursued criminally anymore, but Goodell is not letting him back in the league. There’s going to be some discipline there and the NFL, the union, they’ve already brought up how they want to fight that. So, the players union is going to fight for Tyreek Hill to be allowed to play.

DJ: (24:51)
Another instance where they don’t care about justice, they just care about the member.

Jerry: (24:57)
The member. Exactly that. Even though this guy did something wrong and egregious it’s okay, you can’t kick him out of the league. You can’t do it. You got to basically rehabilitate him back or as long as he understands he made a mistake and this goes back to their using the Union as Adrian Peterson as a good example. When I hear again, things aren’t going real well at that, on the other side of that, but that’s a personal matter with his children. But when it gets brought into the media and the unions using it as an negotiation ploy and that Tyreek Hill should play because Adrian Peterson is playing. Again, it just goes back to the union wanting to show their power that can protect the player no matter what they did. Right and wrong isn’t the issue. It’s we get to protect them and how dare you discipline our player. Now…

DJ: (25:42)
What’s the point of the commissioner then? If they do get their way and they end up winning, which I don’t think they will. I really don’t. I think the NFL will win on this. They’ll stand and die on this issue. However, let’s just say they do get their way. What would be the point of having a commissioner?

Jerry: (25:54)
Well, I agree, but what’s the point? If they go to arbitration and Brady is still suspended for four games, they’re gonna pull the same crap. Go to someone else now because they, what it boils down to. I’m not hearing what I want to hear so we’re going to go somewhere else. I get the whole appeal process, but what all this is saying is the union is saying we don’t like this verdict. We want to hear it from you. All right, so now they, if they were to wipe out the commissioner’s power and they go to arbitration and the arbitrator says no, suspended a whole season. Now what’s it going to be?

DJ: (26:24)
It could be a little bit of the Trump derangement syndrome. Anybody…no matter What Trump says, he’s wrong. Well, no matter what Goodell says he’s wrong, so they’re just going to fight him no matter what.

Jerry: (26:35)
Well, I think that’s where it’s going and that’s what this was going to hold up and you’re going to lose a whole season because of this one issue right here. The union wanted to take the power away from the commissioner and it won’t happen. I think the NFL, we’ll let it go. They will bring in replacements and they will also they’ii let it stretch out enough to where the players will tell the union. They’ll force them on crossing the line. I got to go back, I gotta make my money. So I think when DeMaurice, I forget his last name, the NFL, a president, the union president came on and said, save your money. NFL is in the same thing. The owners, Hey, get ready for a long strike. Get ready for bringing whatever replacements you want to call them. The scabs is the term that they use, whatever they’re going to do to bring in replacement players. They’re telling the owners now to get ready for that. And it may be a year, a year and a half before the players come back and cross the line. So, I think you’re going to have a stalemate coming up here. So again, fantasy players, people love the NFL. Enjoy this year because it’s going to be the last year for awhile.

DJ: (27:30)
Well, just to clarify, the NFLPA, President Eric Winston, he’s the one who came out and tweeted that to prepare for the work stoppage.

Jerry: (27:37)
Who’s (DeMaurice)? He’s the one that I’m always hearing talk and he’s the NFL. I thought…

DJ: (27:42)
He could be the, and the union representative (Executive Director), but

Jerry: (27:45)
That may be, it could be it because a, yeah, that could be it. But anyways, I still think it’s going to be a long drawn process is just to rid the commissioner of his powers and it will not happen. They will, the NFL make it go as long as they can with the replacements or what have you to the, the, the players will cross. But mind you, it would be like the NHL, they will lose a whole season over this.

DJ: (28:05)
Well, the NHL didn’t just lose the season, they lost a lot of popularity to it. It really hit them.

Jerry: (28:09)
I think that’s what the players, association doesn’t realize they’re flirting with. Uh, right now the NFL is king of the hill. It was baseball. Now it’s NFL. You take the NFL out for a season. Yeah, they’re gonna fall. They’re gonna go down. Just like the Nhl did I think like the NHL. But if you remembered, they kind of had a hard time coming back. Um, Versus came out of nowhere to pick them up. The ESPN kind of just (would) go away. I don’t think that’ll happen. I think at the NFL was to lose a year and come back. The, depending on how they’re going to stream it, whatever the medium might be, it’s just going to be full blown excitement.

DJ: (28:44)
So then the question then is how long do you think the NFL will go before they actually employ replacements? During work stoppage.

Jerry: (28:52)
Well, well clearly we’re dealing with the owners now and they don’t like to lose money and it’s all about making money for the owners.

DJ: (28:58)
This whole CBA is about money, this whole thing is about money.

Jerry: (29:01)
They’ve got their, they’ve got their game plan, their profit margins that, I don’t know what it is, but I’m going to give an example. Allright, we can go six games. On the seventh game, we’ve got to bring in replacements to start generating revenue. We’ve got to have a game for a ESPN is show so we can get our money for the TV rights. Now, whether it doesn’t have to be these players here, they can bring replacements in. They’re going to cross the line, you’re going to have that whole dialogue going on again where there’ll be, have the NFL players and the picket line and the bus bringing them in. You know, throwing the rocks and stuff at the bus, all that. You have college studs who couldn’t make an NFL going to get their second chance. So yeah, and I think that people are still going to buy it. It’s almost that whole high school. Rah, rah, rah, I want to root for my team. There was a Lions fan who called him the other day. Um, one of the DFN ticket guys just said, I’m done with the Lions they’ve lost my whole life. I’m just sick of it. And this guy calls it how could you? Every year, no matter what, even they’re 0-16, I come back the next year with hope. So you’ve got these delusional fans that will say they’ll take anybody in that Honolulu, blue and silver, especially if, can you imagine if Detroit the Superbowl with replacement players?

DJ: (30:09)
Well, well first of all, hope, break it down to a Rush song. “Hope is like an endless river.” And that river just keeps on flowing. So that’s why the Lions Fans keep doing it.

Jerry: (30:19)
If they have gotten the championship, if they would’ve gotten their championship. They want it so bad. But would it really be a value?

DJ: (30:25)
Well to Lions fans I think it would be. They’re pragmatic, the end justifies the means. Whatever it takes to get that glittering prize, they’ll do it. So, if replacement players do it…

Jerry: (30:32)
My whole point, if I was going to win, I want to win with my players not to the whatever second line of players. The second chance players cause every player who got cut, you don’t who’s going to be a stud? Johnny Menzel, they’re going to bring him back as a replacement player. All those, that level of player that’s in the Canadian Football League, this Xfl, that’s being started up by Vince McMahon. The other one, the AAL that just folded.

DJ: (30:56)
Yeah, all of those players going to come back. And there’s your replacing players, right there.

Jerry: (31:00)
The owners have no problem using those players. It’s a lot about making the money. And this is where I say the fan. At first I thought it was ignorant, but I’m coming to the point where they’re stupid cause they’ll keep going back no matter what the product that comes out. A Lions fan is a good example. At some point, you got to realize this organization doesn’t care about winning, it’s about money, but yet you got these people that want that champions. They’ll keep going back and pay that money to see a product that’s inferior. Yet, if you go to a restaurant and you get into your food, you go back the next night, you probably, you would hope not. But these fascists go right back and they’re all open arms knowing full well, we might not win, but I just love it. I’m going to use the mindset of high school. You got to root for your high school team. You would never root for Divine Child if you went to Bishop Borgess or Catholic central. It’s always cause you, you’re young. It’s that no matter what, no matter how bad you are, um,

DJ: (31:52)
Be true to your school.

Jerry: (31:53)
One of, yeah, be true to your school. One of the, uh, uh, ticket. We went, I forget what school, but he didn’t win a game all four years in high school football yet every year, senior year they went out there, you know, cheering there team. Hoping for that win. When the mentality goes a little bit more when we get into college. But then when you get to the NFL in the city, now you must root for the Lions. Even though they would ever put up, you know, turns, you know, every single year you must root for them. You must be loyal to your city. Now is no, it’s a business.

DJ: (32:20)
Well that’s exactly it. It’s reflection of the top down. If you look at Illitch, he cared about winning. So he brought, even with even though the Tigers didn’t win, he brought in to try to win and he won for the Red Wings. The Lions owners don’t, Fords don’t care about winning. They care about making money. They care about packing the seats.

Jerry: (32:37)
I won’t say what star, but a former long, long time Detroit Tigers Star, his wife is now in the uh, health care where I, where I work at. And he brought up why don’t know why it wasn’t a Yankee fan…

DJ: (32:47)
Why you weren’t a Tiger fan.

Jerry: (32:49)
Yeah. Why wasn’t a Tiger fan and why I was a Yankee fan? And I had to literally tell them that literally since I’ve been around, it’s been 68 and 84 tigers won two world championships. Okay, so for the remaining, what, 30 some 40 some years it just pure misery. That’s what I have because I live in Detroit. I get to just two and the rest I have to suffer. No, I want to go to where it’s a contender. They’re not going to win and be you. But they contend and they have the owner that wants to win. They’re going to pay that luxury tax. And I even brought up to him about Kansas City and he even acknowledged that Pittsburgh and Kansas City, we’re using luxury tax just to put the money in the owner’s pockets. They weren’t going back and paying the players. You See New York, will pay the luxury tax. They don’t care. They want to win. Detroit does not want to pay the luxury tax. Most clubs don’t. Now the Guy Dave Dombrowski who was the GM for the Tigers is now in Boston and they’re paying on luxury tax. What are they doing? They’re off to the best of this year. But last year they tore it up and the bad part is, do you know how many ex-Tigers are on that team? There’s quite a few. Quite a few. So the point being is yeah, it’s not just where you live but they get that high school mentality. I think they have to. With the NFL, we get back to the union holdout, owners want their money, they got their profit margins and they already know what week we are going to hold out and they will bring replacement players in and I don’t even think any (of them) worried about it cause they will get their money. The TV money’s there. Isn’t like the old days. Remember when the Pontiac Silverdome if they didn’t sell out, you didn’t watch the game.

DJ: (34:13)
Yeah the blackouts

Jerry: (34:14)
and even into Canada, you got to watch it now. That hasn’t happened anymore. If it’s half empty stadium, they still gonna televise that because the broadcasting rights have included that now there are no blackouts. They are playing such a…,

DJ: (34:28)
wait a minute, wait a minute. I don’t know if it’s still the case. I haven’t bought a package, but at least for the hockey, if you didn’t get to watch the, the local, if you had to watch it on Fox Detroit, you couldn’t watch it on the Nhl that came through with Season Ticket,

Jerry: (34:42)
no, no. Correct. No, you’re a correct. That’s absolutely correct. But back in the day, even with Fox before Direct ticket, the NFL Ticket came out. Fox could not be a blackout if the Lions didn’t sell out three quarters of the building

DJ: (34:55)
and it was like the Friday before.

Jerry: (34:57)
Correct. And that has had, that rule is gone. They could literally be an empty stadium and they’re still gonna show that game because the revenue is still coming from the TV contract. So the owners don’t care anymore. They’re going to get their money from the TV contracts. The players wanted more of that and I think the last time, they gave up less so a little bit. They’re have it out about getting less money and the owners are getting more. This is all about, again, it goes to the owners getting so much money when they’re the owner.

DJ: (35:21)
It kind of breaks down “North Dallas Forty” “when you say it’s a sport I say it’s a business…”

Jerry: (35:25)
Every single time, but if you want a Jerry Richardson now the NFL just made him sell his team but he used to play and he bought a team and I think Michael Jordan, Derek Jeter, there are few players that become an owner, but they were watching their money. Not every player can do that.

DJ: (35:41)
Mario Lemieux.

Jerry: (35:42)
There you go, watching his money. I think Gretzky has a part ownership in um, the Oilers. The point being is that every player can do that.

DJ: (35:49)
Wasn’t it Arizona? I could be wrong about Gretzky. I thought he had, I don’t know.

Jerry: (35:52)
It might be, it might be the Coyotes, but he has a stake in a team like Jordan. He’s with the Wizard now with the Bulls. These guys were smart enough to save their money, but they’re not players now. They’re owners. It’s about making money. They have their profit margins and they’re going to hit that period no matter what. So at the end of the day, yes, they’re going to come back and they’re going to bring a replacement players and it’ll be a long strike. And I think the next year, halfway through those settle.

DJ: (36:17)
This is a separate issue, but I would like to have seen what would have happened if Mario Lemieux was playing and owning the Penguins, if they went on strike, what would have happened? He would, he would have that strike against himself.

Jerry: (36:26)
That would’ve been a, there’s a, a weird situation to be in. A conflict of interest if there ever was one.

DJ: (36:30)
Yes, true.

Jerry: (36:32)
But if you guys have anything, especially about the union, I know there are a lot of people out there who feel very differently about the union. So please get ahold of us.

DJ: (36:39)
It’s a pro union state.

Jerry: (36:40)
Yes. So get ahold of us. Let us hear it.

DJ: (36:42)
And get a hold of us once again at Our email is GrandDesignsPodcast@Yahoo. Twitter’s is @granddesignspod and our handle for Instagram is GrandDesignsPodcast. This is the grand designs podcast. Who are you listening to?

Grand Designs Podcast – Episode 4 – Officiating in Professional Sports Transcript

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the podcast Detroit Network visit for more information.

This is Grand Design podcast with DJ and Jerry Grand. Where we link th chains of reason of sports, politics and culture.

[00:00:34]DJ: Welcome to episode 4 of the Grand Designs podcast. My name is DJ Grand. And once again, I’m joined by my brother Jerry.

Jerry: Hello.

DJ: Today, we’re going to be discussing officiating and how it relates to the games, all games. We did believe discussion NBA officiating as well as the NHL. Basically, the officials are the police judge and jury of these games. They are the ones that are the purveyors of justice and when [00:01:04] they don’t do their jobs, then games aren’t just and unfair.

Jerry: I think what we’re going to discuss and find out that most of these leagues NBA, NFL not so much the Major League Baseball as of yet, but the NHL, the leagues are picking the teams that are going to advance by mandating such things to these referees. Case in point will get in the NBA in a little bit. But first off, its the Saints and Rams game now, that was the most horrible [00:01:34] non-call in the history of the game,

DJ: Especially for the time of the year, yes, it was.

Jerry: the most critical goal in the Super Bowl the NFC Championship. Grant it,  had that call but in week 6, no big deal forget about it. Go on to the next week week seven, live to play another week because it was for the Super Bowl fans took that too literally to the nth degree to what you were saying last week that a Senator put on the floor to go ahead and do what?

DJ: They wanted to do to make sure a reply were going go a [00:02:04] NFL Replay.

Jerry: A do-over more or less and that just isn’t going to happen again week six doesn’t care about but week seven we got legislation in the US government you had a fan or a lawyer who was a fan of the Saints, sue the NFL for one of the reason was lack of life or lack of enjoyment of life because of the lost game and that one call.

DJ: Silly

Jerry: Very silly, but the call was literally egregious and I still haven’t heard the reason why it wasn’t called [00:02:34] from the NFL but I’m going to basically throughout the show

DJ: Didn’t come out and say it was human error?

Jerry: Yeah, but it wasn’t human error that the ref was right there and you even though the replay you seen the chief ref, the white hat, looking right at the play and he’s the one that can overrule any referee on that field and he was looking right at it.

DJ: They always say they don’t want any part of the narrative. I’ll bring this back up again later when we talk about the NHL but that non-call made them part of the narrative.

Jerry: But if you started the show off they were there for [00:03:04] the purveyors of Justice.

DJ: They are

Jerry: whether it’s in the first two minutes or last two seconds of the game a penalty is a penalty and the one ref at the goal line was right there looking at it and it was a blatant no call. I still haven’t heard what happened to him if he’s fired her be as a job yet. Yes, that was from Roger Goodell, but that’s I’m going to basically explain what I don’t think so because the NFL known is known for tinkering with drafts and I can go back to I’m sure Lions fans can recall, I think it was a couple years ago. They were in the playoffs, [00:03:34] they played in Dallas they’re playing pretty well. They’re going to win. The referees called an interference on the Dallas Cowboys. That flag was called or thrown, they called it. They got into a group to discuss it as they should. Dez Bryant went on the field with no helmet. Now, right there, that’s a penalty right there. So, I’ll get back to that. They picked up the penalty flag. No call, after a lengthy discussion. And when everyone may not know every discussion is with the New York the [00:04:04] NFL in New York. There’s a head ref. Last year. It was Dean Blandino. He’s now a referee analyst for Fox Sports. I think they have a new person. I do not know his name, but that referee he’s calling all these judgment calls and he’s talking to these refs and they picked that flag up. What do you want the playoffs? Who’s going to sell more and it’s about television is not seats its television. What’s going to sell the Dallas Cowboys or Detroit Lions.

DJ: Nationally, It’ll be the Cowboys

Jerry: Every day of the week. So, the flag was picked up [00:04:34] and nothing was said about Dez Bryant coming off trying to justify that it wasn’t interference. And that was right there a 15-yard penalty which would give the Lions a first down and the game would have been changed. The narrative would have been changed where the Lions win, but that’s a whole other subject.

DJ: Well, once again the refs became part of the narrative when they said that’s their excuse of not making a call as they don’t want to be part of the narrative. Yet, they were part of the narrative.

Jerry: and we talked about it last week the tuck rule, which is famous for Tom Brady. And if you listen to Jerry Rice, there was no such rule before that game. If you watch the film that [00:05:04] was a fumble by every rule

DJ: No doubt about it.

Jerry: But now at the time three minutes was the limit if the rest could not be clear and defined on the call, they had to go with on the field that went over six minutes and they basically at the time was Paul Tagliabue who basically told the head ref will make the rule for it tomorrow. It’s an incomplete pass right now because that fumble sealed the Raiders victory

DJ: And they wanted [00:05:34] the Patriots

Jerry: NFL has a narrative. So, they’re using the referees why the referees I’m surprised one hasn’t come out but we’re going to find one has because he got in the wrong means of it. He was gambling and got hooked up to where he was calling games for his aspect the NBA official Tim Donaghy, but if it happens in the NBA and I can see it happening in the NFL now it’s making sense before I did I could not figure out why these calls are being made in a good written other to back up my reasoning [00:06:04] the very the second Drive of the Super Bowl. The Rams made a top-notch play. It was third down and 10 screen pass. It was blown up by the Rams. The ref called the penalty on someone else that did not even come close what he was called for which is defensive holding or being a defensive player. 

DJ: It was a ghost penalty.

Jerry: Yes, correct. And that was almost like the Michigan guy who was a running back who got called for holding and he was being held it.

DJ: Higdon

Jerry: Higdon, correct.

DJ: It was against Iowa, I think

Jerry: Same thing I think [00:06:34] for these things to happen at these points. It’s almost like the Rams are being paid back for that no call and using the referees for their agenda, their mandates.

DJ: I wish I could defend them, I wish I could say they’re being objective and making a mistake. But in this instance, I don’t think they were I think there was a plan and they were there were following by what they were told from above speculation because I have no proof of it. But that’s what was, it was indicated anyways to me.

Jerry: Correct. [00:07:05] Now, I’m going to use an interview it was published on May 24 2018. Chris Krauss was the interviewer and he interviewed Tim Donaghy. Tim Donaghy is the referee for the NBA who was notorious for a betting Scandal. He foresees NCAA players fixing games as sports betting becomes legal. Now, during his interview he has some very awesome questions, the first being when you first heard the US Supreme Court ruling what were your thoughts? Now, Donaghy he is saying his first thoughts were that [00:07:35] it was long overdue and sports leagues are now going to take advantage of the fact that gambling is legal and do everything they can to capitalize on the revenue and get a piece of the pie which is all about the money.

DJ: I see no problem with them taking advantage of gambling as long it’s legal. I mean, I’m not for gambling. I think it’s irrational but if it’s legal it is what it is.

Jerry: I agree now when you get into legal bookmakers, are legal bookmakers going to have trouble getting the better to move over from the illegal Market can the legal Market succeed? I think people are still [00:08:05] going to, this is Donaghy, I think people are still going to go to local bookies for a lot of reasons. They’re going to want to avoid paying taxes when they win and stay away from paying any fees to the League’s. Now, the leagues are going to get fees from these gambling’s now which is all more money for them, which is why the NBA’s promoting it.

DJ: I think so. It’s not just that, they’re going to stay away from it. Not just because I taxes didn’t mean that’s just the easy route. That’s what they’re going to do eyes are cast down on the path of least resistance.

Jerry: I agree.

DJ: I mean they do the office pools all the time now, I mean, so it has nothing to do least [00:08:35] in my point of view.

Jerry:  It’s not going to go in the back seat.

DJ: It’s still going happen

Jerry: Now, he does he told for the NCAA but he’s more concerned about the NBA which is where he’s from and he’s asking them have the NBA cleaned up their act with regard to how referees officiate? Now, this is Tim Donaghy responding back. No, I don’t think it’s cleaned up. I still see referees officiating based on the names on the front and back of jerseys and not based on how the rules are written in the rule book. I still see officials advancing in the playoffs who have a poor performance [00:09:05] and embarrass the league. A prime example is NBA referee Zack Zarba. At the end of game five in the Boston-Philadelphia Eastern Conference semifinal Series, this would be last year, he missed two critical calls that would have most likely given Philadelphia the win. Instead, the series is over and it cost that franchise millions of dollars. Who knows? Maybe they go back to Philly. Maybe they win game six and it goes to Game 7 and yet he Advanced to the third round of the playoffs. And the NCAA, if a college basketball official has a poor game [00:09:35] like that. He doesn’t advance to the next round. It’s the Same Old Situation with the NBA in regard to referees advancing based on relationships they have had with whoever their supervisor is.

DJ: To me, it’s about moral relatively versus moral objectivity. Its relative based on where they’re at. Who’s playing? Like, you said the it was based on popular players. I mean, that’s total relativism.

Jerry: Well, the next question [00:10:05] even gesture that even more Are the referees giving players start treatment because of personal preference or is there something more to it you proved you talked about the 2006 Maverick Heat NBA Finals as a series where the referees were given a mandate to rough a certain way. That’s the MBA telling the Refs

DJ: I was going to say mandated by whom, but. Go ahead

Jerry: the NBA the commissioner in a manner that extended the series. Do you believe there are mandates in place today with regard to how it referees officiate? Now, Donaghy answers back that stars get the benefit of an [00:10:35] extra step and the ability to go to the line more than other people do. It’s just that way. It’s this way it’s been and it’s been that way for always going to be.

DJ: That doesn’t justify it, it’s basically saying that I can skirt the rules because that’s the way it’s always been

Jerry: For whatever the reason, things haven’t changed. If they want to change it and say they have integrity and look at all this stuff, they shouldn’t Advance these referees that make critical mistakes. Now, you got to go back to this mandate that’s back when it was game five of the series between the Heat and the Mavericks. Mavericks win [00:11:05] game 6 the series is over now. The Heat win game 6 it goes to 7, so they were told before that game to mandate that the goes to Game 7. Dallas had no chance.

DJ: Am I wrong but didn’t something happen against with the bad boys to something with the Trailblazers?

Jerry: Well, it’s probably now that you going back twenty-nine years and that was the Portland Trailblazers, their second defense, they won the first year their defending it now, they’re playing in the finals and that your Portland never [00:11:35] lost at home. They were undefeated home. They come to the first two games and they split with Detroit and they’re on the plane saying we’re not coming back. We’re going to win the next three in Portland. They don’t win one game. Now, Lambier is hated among everyone, everywhere. He’s the evil person and he was getting flop calls. They weren’t even touching them and they were calling the other team for charging. Duckworth, he was their Center, it got into his head so bad, It took them off their game completely and Detroit did what no other team [00:12:05] could do the whole year. They beat him three times straight. They were right. It wasn’t going back to Detroit but I wondered that time that was those calls. I mean he was acting Lambier was acting.

DJ: There’s a couple issues there, is it right for Lambier to act and get away with it there talk about integrity. There’s no Integrity to that. But if we’re going to concentrate on the officials, if they’re doing their job, what they’re there for, they should be calling every single infraction and that is an infraction

Jerry: but when they have a mandate, this team doesn’t [00:12:35] win. This literally this goes to now they’re not saying the Mavericks win tonight. What they’re saying is its game six, the series going seven. So, they were mandated for that series to be extended one more game.

DJ: You may lose your job. But if you’re living by principles, you still call it

Jerry: Principles out the out the window now it’s not even in this but then he goes back and he’s have you ever seen any playoff series since you’ve been out of the game that made you wonder what’s going on similar to the 2006 Maverick series? Not to that extent. I think when you talk about a series [00:13:05] like that and the one that the Lakers in 2001 advancing were Sacramento should have won a championship those referees back then Dick Bavetta and Bob Delaney guys who would openly talk about big Market teams and teams down the series that you need to give the benefit of the call. So now it’s not how you’re playing the game. It’s not how the rules are written and that’s what Donaghy’s point is it’s the location market and who’s down in the series.

DJ: The Very definition of moral relativism, its relative on where [00:13:35] playing at. What time the game is at or what time in the season?

Jerry: Why does the league do this?

DJ: I would say for money and fans

Jerry: Absolutely because it’s all about television deals and it’s really all coming clear reading this interview like with the NFL their biggest money the owners make a huge amount of money off the ESPN and Fox and the TV deals in these are huge deals. An owner now back in before the TV was big before the Super Bowl change the culture, if no one came to the game the owner [00:14:05] is upset and he’s firing people. Nowadays, the stadium could be empty and the owner would not feel a thing because of the money.

DJ: they’re still getting paid, they have a good TV contract

Jerry: Billions from the TV. So, all goes back to now big Market teams, they’re paying these TV commercials. What’s going to draw more fans to watch this series?

DJ: Wasn’t big Market versus small Market one of the reasons for the 2004 or I think it was 2003-2004 labor dispute in the NHL that [00:14:35] the big Market teams Detroit, the Rangers

Jerry: The salary cap.

DJ: Yeah, wasn’t it one reason for change?

Jerry: Yeah, because the small Market teams didn’t have a shot against the big Market teams. Well, that was just a salary cap because Detroit was spending how much? And as you pointed out earlier, buying the cup because they could to where teams like Pittsburgh and Nashville, they don’t have the resources Detroit or New York does because of size of population. They couldn’t compete so the NHL came up with an idea of a hard [00:15:05] salary cap to make it equal which we can’t be equal but everyone spends the same amount of money that it’s a hard cap. You can’t go over but when the referees are being told

DJ: How to how to officiate-

Jerry: How to officiate a certain way then it doesn’t matter about salary caps. The league has found a way to get around to where it doesn’t matter about the salary caps anymore. Like the Yankees in baseball. They don’t care about the luxury tax. They’re going to pay and they are going to win. I think Illitch the first couple [00:15:35] years didn’t care about it. But then for some reason after a couple years of that it didn’t like it and reigned back to salaries, hence, Verlander was traded, Cabrerra’s salary was a huge mess of a contract but the point being is Mike Illitch want to spend money. He wanted to win championships now

DJ: and it maybe to their own detriment. I can see this actually turning the fans off especially in the small Market teams their teams. I mean, you’re rooting for your team to go all the way and if they don’t have a chance [00:16:05] eventually they’re going to give up and say I’m done with this.

Jerry: Yes.

DJ: I see it hurting them.

Jerry: If the the NFL didn’t have any competition until this past weekend with the AAF or whatever

DJ: AAF, yes

Jerry: From what the first reviews are, they like it better, the fans like it better than the NFL but they’re doing some different things officiating that there are no TV timeout. It’s a much quicker game

DJ: I think it’s and you can hear the calls by the quarterback. I think you’re getting more involvement. It’s almost interactive with the fans where the NFL isn’t.

Jerry: [00:16:35] I didn’t pay attention the first week I’ll have to because I like to see how the games were officiated because everyone can see the calls now. On TV the cameras everywhere. These calls don’t go on missed. The referees miss it but the fans all over the place and even the ones are at their homes can see it clear as day. And that’s where I think it’s going to go towards the robotic or the computers calling these games. It’s going to be tough in hockey and football, but baseball is already doing it

DJ: and baseball with the strike zone

Jerry: a little box and that that’s going to become to where it isn’t going [00:17:05] to have a human error it’s going to be the computer calling strikes and you can’t argue with the computer now,

DJ:I think the refs, they will lose their job or at least the most of them. This is where it’s going to lead to where we’re going to have automated officiating. I mean, if you go to baseball you could have the cameras seeing who was safe at second with the slide or whatever. You don’t need someone standing there with their non-objective call, which could once again affect The Narrative of the game and then I guess the robot [00:17:35] would be total objective

Jerry: Now, agree because Donaghy also points out that officials are afraid to blow the whistle with 20,000 people screaming at them while yet some love to have the crowd go against them. So now you got referees just blowing it on their ego. while attention,

DJ: Once again, it’s the same

Jerry: It goes against the whole adjusting the being just of or the what Injustice in the calm that playwright or

DJ: because it’s based on a moral relativism.  

Jerry: but it has nothing to do with the police in the league now in a [00:18:05] objective way. There are definitely things behind the scenes is becoming more and more like and I didn’t want to believe this the WWE, they’re picking the winners and these guys even know beforehand going into the match who’s when it’s all choreographed. It’s getting to that point the NFL already choreographs  their drafts meaning they dictate whether the players they want to go and that can be proven in the 83 drafted Marino to Elway. I mean, there are so many things the NFL stepped in and [00:18:35] just blew because they literally said who’s going where and there’s documented.

DJ: To get back to the officiating, I wish I could tell the difference if it’s actually mandated right from up above or if the officials are just corrupt. I mean, it could be either one and they both could be corrupt

Jerry: That’s kind of hard to tell but when you get into the big Market in the NFL or anyone the leagues wanting one certain team will run. I’m gonna start paying attention to the little market teams because they started getting these crappy calls. I’m going to know it’s meant something from above was told the [00:19:05] big Market team goes or even a game five the game six get to game seven if the little the little guy gets wins game seven fine, but get to game seven still much more money, but he pointed out losing those two games lost that franchise millions of dollars.

DJ:  If the fans will start thinking in terms of principles. They wouldn’t accept it. They shouldn’t accept it. I don’t accept it. No one should accept it, but it’s all about who hit the last home run and scored the last touchdown. That’s all that matters to them.  

Jerry: Yeah, but we get back to but [00:19:35] it also League though dictating their dollars. I think they’re using the fans as pawns and puppets

DJ: Absolutely

Jerry: The fans don’t even realize it and that’s a problems

DJ: That’s what I meant by not thinking principles if they did they’d realize it

Jerry: But if we go from the NBA now to the NHL and this is even a little bit more peculiar, I guess because the NHL they wrapped their games differently in the regular season to the playoffs in the first period of the third period it’s a completely different game. [00:20:05]

DJ: You can actually see the relativism in the NHL because then you’ll see hardly any calls, especially if it’s a game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals, you’ll see hardly any calls at all either way one team or the other because once again the refs don’t want to be a part of the narrative and its total total relativism. If there’s an infraction even as Eddie Olczyk used to call subtle interference. It’s still interference. [00:20:35] It’s still should be called. I don’t care if there’s a thousand infractions that are called and a constant going into the Penalty Box eventually, they’ll get the point that if they keep making these illegal plays they won’t they won’t be playing that much and they’ll stop.

Jerry: They can couple years ago. They really in the beginning of season, were calling everything that faded away throughout this as a season worn on and then when you got to the playoffs it is a completely different season.

DJ: There’s [00:21:05] a great article from the Buffalo Spree by Peter Martin from December of 2018 that was just a few months ago. And basically, he’s talking about how the penalties have changed since the lockout. Right away after lockout, everyone was praising how the game’s changed. They put the trapezoid rule in they were supposed to be calling the infractions more the hooking, the holding, the interference and all of a sudden scoring went up. Well, he acknowledges the NHL’s gotten away from calling those penalties on lazy defenders [00:21:35] and we are returning to the bad old days of hockey. In 2005-2006 the first after the lockout team’s average six point five goals per game in large part thanks to 12.7 minor penalties called each night. Those numbers have plummeted by 2016-17 NHL season average goals per game had fallen almost a whole integer, integer, sorry, averaging just 5.11 with just six point seven miners called it’s not like playing suddenly [00:22:05] got cleaner the penalties stopped happening and they just stopped being called. There’s a great article from its and they took all the games regular season games from 2005-2006 all the way up to 2017-2018 and they showed that basically at the end of the third period the referees would not make a call. They would stop making what would [00:22:35] be peacefully objective calls non-judgmental calls when

There was a delay of game into the stands, they would always be called. They’re obvious the ones the hooking, the holding, the interference, the ones that are called judgment calls, the refs stop calling. Now, that means it’s relative based to the time of the game.

Jerry: I’m going to go back 10 years ago, but 2008-2009. I spoke with an NHL referee in person [00:23:05] and I talked to this referee just about this and he came out and said they are not going to be the reason for a team to win in the end in a playoff game or an overtime.

DJ: Wait, hold on

Jerry: Anything short of a guy being decapitated will not be call it even decapitated,

DJ: but they are the reason because when someone gets away with doing something illegal and a play happens and it ends up scoring, they become the reason it happened and so that it’s foolish thinking [00:23:35] it’s absolutely foolish, it’s naïve.

Jerry:  Yet, he was confident. I mean his tone, he wasn’t he was sure he was almost like that’s how he was told to rough the game by his superiors.

DJ: I think is in the culture when we used to play adult no check hockey and I remember we were in a playoff game and I was being tugged right in front of the wrap from The Ref came to the bench. I complained to him, in colorful language and the ref turned to me and said, “I’m not calling that right now.” That’s the same [00:24:05] exact, it’s being relative based on what the time of the game or the time in the game looking in.

Jerry: Hooking the first two minutes is hooking in the last two whether it be overtime game seven, it does not matter

DJ: if your objective

Jerry: but the refs for some in the NHL they don’t want to be the ones that I can’t figure out. It’s the worst of all the League’s if it come from up top or was just within the referees from the head ref telling them you will not determine a game and there are is a ton of penalties that are given as makeup calls.

DJ: Once you can [00:24:35] see that are determined to not calling something. It’s breaks it down to a Rush song, “if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.” They are making a choice by not calling it. They’re still interfering with the game. It’s just not obvious.

Jerry: They are not looking at that way.

DJ:  Not objectively and subjectively

Jerry: They’re basically saying that we’re going to have our hands, putting the whistles in our pockets and we’re going to let you play the game that’s somewhat the Saints and Rams happen, put the [00:25:05] was in the pocket and they played the game. The rules are there are no rules

DJ: Remember, when I brought up that there were the police judge and jury,

Jerry: They’re not

DJ: what if they did what if the police judge and jury took on that exact same philosophy took on moral relativism and says, oh, well, I’m not going to I mean, you can’t even hear it in the border with the seperating of the families that we even though it’s illegal. We should we should think of the families, you know, and that that’s moral relativism because it’s based on whether their [00:25:35] parents are not not whether they broke the law. Okay, so we bring this over into sports

Jerry: It not whether they did the penalty or not

DJ: Exactly

Jerry: The refs judgment because they don’t want to be in the last two minutes of causing them to lose or win the game

DJ: Which is an emotional argument.

Jerry: I completely agree which that but that’s been hockey forever. I think that’s hockey’s problem mean that they’re one of the worst. They’re the least popular sport. I think that’s part of the problem people can see there’s a fans that these playoff games. It’s a different. It’s not the same game as regular season.

DJ:  Partly. [00:26:05] I also think part of the problem. It’s in the culture. It’s the Don Cherry mentality. It’s I have to hit I have to pull, I have to trip, it doesn’t matter. Whatever get me through that. That’s look what Don Cherry’s to say. He was proud of the fact that the Chicago Blackhawks all didn’t wear visors. He was so proud of that yet. It’s irrelevant to the game. Absolutely. It’s what is it? What does it foster? The tough man.

Jerry: It doesn’t matter but Cherry’s from that Gordie Howe kind of day when it [00:26:35] was brutal, you know the refs they didn’t call anything for that reason and yeah, Cherry love that kind of rough and that those are his boys, the Gilmore, but as the game has changed and the refs the calling of the games should evolve with that. I could see back in Don Cherry’s of these get these calls wouldn’t be

DJ:  this goes back to, I think, it was ‘72 when he’s the coach of the Bruins.

Jerry: Yeah.

DJ: No, this is this is recent. When he was just a sportscaster

Jerry: but that’s Don Cherry, seriously that’s in him that he’s never going to change.

DJ: Okay, [00:27:05] it starts from the top and it dwindles down and then someone ends up getting their neck broken in playing hockey because of that tough man mentality. I mean we go back to the referee. Look at what Todd Bertuzzi did. I think his name was Moore and he broke his neck on Ice.

Jerry: Yeah,

DJ: they allowed it to happen because they weren’t calling infractions has been calling what they should have been that have been stopped right immediately and he would not have lost his job and his livelihood.

Jerry: I think of the refs called them, but they should there wouldn’t be the need for enforcer in hockey. I [00:27:35] think the needs of the enforcer because rough don’t want to call so the teams have to self-police.

DJ: That gets into a different subject, but I don’t think there should be enforcers because hockey isn’t about fighting you want you want fighting go to boxing or MMA. That’s great. But that’s not what hockey is about, hockey’s about skating, shooting, passing and scoring

Jerry: Skill

DJ: Yes, skill

Jerry: I completely agree.

DJ: What does an enforcer have to do with that?

Jerry: but if a ref isn’t going to call that slashing then you got Marty McSorley going out there. You’re not going to touch Gretzky again, or I’m going to rip your head off and the team, they [00:28:05] follow. They don’t touch Gretzky. They had the ref call that you would need McSorley out there.

DJ: It’s the Batman mentality, vigilantism.

Jerry: That’s what it is.

DJ: You have to be a vigilante in order to have Justice and that is a problem with have refs. If the refs do their job you wouldn’t need Vigilantes

Jerry: That’s hockey to the core right now. It isn’t about the penalty being in the first two minutes will last two minutes. They don’t want to be the ones that called or had a part in calling that game and they’ll even go so far to where they’ll give a team if the if a Coach works over the [00:28:35] ref good enough, they’ll give them a makeup call just for a great (workover) which isn’t a penalty, they’re going to call. There’s the exact opposite because they want to make up that call because they the coach got in their ear and they’re kind of thinking back to maybe it was a ghost call. Here we go. Again, it’s some referees like that some referees don’t and they give in.

DJ: Even make up calls have the edge of moral relativism to them because it’s not based on objective…

Jerry: That’s my whole point.

DJ: It’s based on. Oh, I made a mistake or this team got a penalty we [00:29:05] have to give one to this team.

Jerry: In the overtime or the game seven. Someone literally tomahawks and breaks their stick. They’re not going to call it but in the first period when they want to make up a call in the guy just grazes that stick. It’s a slashing.

Jerry: It’s a completely…

DJ: It’s sad

Jerry: very sad.

DJ: And once again, this goes to my point that they buy them not calling it. They’re causing their creating a narrative.

Jerry: I kind of think that’s why they’re one of the least popular because the fans just get so frustrated that these calls [00:29:35] and look the Goon of the game. They’re doing their best to get the Goon out because it is not there anymore

DJ: and fighting

Jerry: correct. There’s only a couple, the capitals Wilson, but that he’s got skill to where he can fight and he can skate you don’t find many of those guys

DJ: Ryan Reeves from, I think he’s on the Golden Knights

Jerry: but they’re few and far between. They don’t want the enforcer in there. If they really don’t want the enforcer called and I think you’d have better fans, but I don’t think NHL is going to call and that’s what basically I think it stems the referee. [00:30:05] I don’t think the NHL mandates them or there’s picking teams to win as much as they’re saying the ref just put your whistles in your pockets. Whoever wins. Whoever comes up comes up

DJ: that’s going to bring them the Bob Probert back and the thugs.

Jerry: I think that’s what the NHL kind of

DJ: That’s what makes me not want to watch hockey anymore.

Jerry: I don’t watch hockey anymore because it’s frustrating. A penalty in the first two minutes should be the same in the last two minutes. It’s completely different game from the regular season and the frustrating part is when you get to the postseason, it’s a completely [00:30:35] different game.

DJ: Oh, absolutely.

Jerry: It’s not just the stress of the playoffs and all that. I get that. It’s the ref just basically I don’t know why they’re there. I get it back in the day when they had one ref. Now they have two and they still do not call it because it’s the playoffs. It doesn’t matter first period or not it just the penalties drop. I’m sure your graph points out in the playoffs that they just have no calls.

DJ: Especially at the end of the game and in overtime

Jerry: And those games are what 0-0, 1-1.

DJ: If you watch an overtime playoff game, there aren’t very many [00:31:05] calls unless it’s absolutely obvious like to delay of game when they shoot the puck in the stands they much have to call those because 20,000 people see it but and it’s also a not a judgment, the judgment calls, the holdings the high sticking’s, because they could say hi stick and I didn’t mean it. He didn’t and it’s a judgment and that’s the problem if they’re going to be the jury the judge and jury, they need to be objective and that’s going to make the game better if they’re objective

Jerry: If they can fix that it would make the game much better. We’ll have to see where [00:31:35] that goes. But I think all this officiating it comes back to how is it affecting the culture?

DJ: Well, I think, once again, it can tell it can tell all those who are watching that the end justifies the means.

Jerry: it’s okay to cheat. It’s okay.

DJ: Well, it’s okay to be morally relative that the thing your ethics changed based on the situation. That’s what relativism is. I mean slavery is always wrong even though it was legal at one time. If you’re a moral absolutist, you [00:32:05] believe it’s with it was even wrong when it was legal. Okay, that’s absolutely wrong. That’s how it should be in hockey. Every single infraction that is determined to be against the rules should be called 100% of the time

Jerry: it goes for all four.

DJ: It should be absolute.

Jerry: Absolutely, but when you get into the culture now, yeah, at least people to feel entitled because the calls are going their way and I’ll give you a classic example is New England Patriots that is on the most entitled fan bases now because of look [00:32:35] they…there are 31 teams that are not allowed to deflect the footballs, but there is one team that can do it and he is the greatest quarterback because he’s a great quarterback because he wears blue and red and white and gray he can deflate the balls.

DJ: I will give the fans a sort of pass because it’s been emotional, they’re rooting for their favorite team. They want they have emotion invested in it. That is not the job of the referees. I the refs are supposed to be objective [00:33:05] and that’s their job, to call every single infraction not to turn their heads. They used to do that in the old Soviet Union. If you paid me, if you greased me, I’ll turn my head and you can do anything illegal you want. That’s what basically game is.

Jerry:  And I bring up that for a reason because they have refs that our guarding those balls. There are so many balls for the home team and their imprinted Patriots, Steelers, whatever, so many for the visiting team and there are referees assigned those balls are guarded and that was happening long before so there’s our officiating crew [00:33:35] that let that slip. All right, and then literally there was even one I forget the team the player, I probably should remember, he threw the ball said, “That’s not our ball.” And the ref said, “You sure,” looked at the ball, said, “Yep, we have the wrong ball. Please bring their ball in.” They have to the they’re literally officiating which balls to have to use.

DJ: I have no problem with that. You should be able to use your own ball.  I have no problem with that. The problem is, if they’re if they’re caught deflating the balls, the rule should be enforced.

Jerry: That’s why I bring it up because you had officials that were just letting that go until [00:34:06] I don’t know how they it was brought out how it was it leaked out but that was a long time because it was let go some fans said, “It’s okay.” Now there are other teams that can’t do that. So, I think it’s carried often to our culture to where we’re entitled to where we can do what we want to win the game and it gets back to our first episode of pragmatism whatever it takes.

DJ: That entitlement from the fans wouldn’t work, if the Refs just did their job. If they officiated objectively and with an absolute moral [00:34:36] compass, right or wrong if it’s wrong it’s called. Period.

Jerry: I grew up very naive, thinking the refs were doing their jobs. I thought there was no way I mean the refs were there, that’s why they were on their Stripes They’re the person to say it’s a foul, it’s a penalty. I’m over the last couple years after reading this article, I’ve come to the conclusion that I think they’re doing their jobs, but they’re being told how to ref these games and that’s the problem.

DJ: It is, I just wish the refs would learn to be [00:35:06] objective to learn the difference between moral relativism and absolute moral clarity.

Jerry: Yeah, but when you got the owners of these leagues who are making billions, more clarity, it all that just goes out the window because it goes back down to where they want to make this money and at end of the day the NFL is worth billions of dollars. They want to go Global they want nothing to happen to this and it’s sad to say that they would say I don’t want Jacksonville in the Super Bowl because it’ll kill our world…marketing [00:35:36] people won’t watch the game anymore. We’ll watch the Super Bowl. When in fact they’re watching for the commercials now.

DJ: it’s a difference between a true capitalist and a crony capitalist and the crony capitalists are winning.

Jerry: And that’s what it is, the crony capitalists, until they get I don’t want to say it’s all about the money because you got to make money that that’s what it’s a business but there’s a right way and a wrong way and right now it’s the wrong way from the commissioner of these leagues, Roger Goodell, Adam Silver, Rob Manfred and he’s even talking about [00:36:06] now changing rules to where each pitcher must, this is a brand-new today, he brought this up, they must face three batters no more bringing in just the facing one. You got to face a minimum of three batters. So, they’re literally dictating the game by he’s doing it through rules.

DJ: See, I don’t mind that. If they bring up the rule and it’s enforced at the beginning of the season and everyone has to follow it, I don’t mind that at all, but it needs to be enforced. It’s when you let one go…

Jerry: Do they follow it?

DJ: Exactly yeah. I don’t mind the making [00:36:36] rules and try and improve the game. I truly don’t. The rules in football or totally different now than what they were 50, even 70 years ago, totally different. It’s a different game. But whenever the rules are there are established. They should be enforced.

Jerry: And the refs have to be objective and it is hard to no matter what. No matter what call you make, you’re the bad guy you’re going to people saying you’re right and wrong but as a ref that got to be objective.

DJ: Mistakes are one thing, I get human mistakes and I’ll give them that. But when you constantly put your whistle in your [00:37:06] pocket at a certain time part of the game or a certain part of the year or the season, that’s not a mistake that’s done with conscious intent.

Jerry: Yeah, and that’s what’s making these leagues. I think it’s going to it’s going to hurt him in their viewership. It will go down the NFL will not be the NFL in 10 years. And I think these calls are going to lead to people walking away.

DJ: I think that’s part of it. It’s part of it and I think it started with the Colin Kaepernick protest that started the people walking away. It’s a different issue, but it’s all these things together are going to hurt the NFL.

Jerry: it won’t be the same league in 10 years.

DJ: Absolutely. I totally agree. I [00:37:36] totally agree. There’s one last thing. I like to bring up. It’s not related to the refereeing. It was brought up by Major League Baseball this very weekend. They’re going to change calling the disabled list to the injured list. Coming from a person who is disabled, I am highly offended by it. It’s another form of political correctness rearing its ugly head. I’d rather be philosophically correct than politically correct. And [00:38:06] in order to be politically correct, you elevate politics to the top level of the metaphysical level and metaphysics is first, politics is the fourth branch in a proper philosophical system. I would much rather be philosophically correct then politically correct and that’s why I think it’s an absurd notion to change it from disabled to injury. I didn’t even think of it. I’m disabled. I didn’t even think of it until they brought it up.

Jerry: I don’t think of it either but [00:38:36] that’s where the culture is taking us. Just today I seen on Yahoo! where Barbie, now, they have disabled dolls. Okay, I think it’s that the Manford wants to just want to upset his sponsors and the sponsors have come out and said, you know change this or we’re going to go away. So now he’s caving into that. It’s about the money again. So now we’re going to change it because our sponsors are certain people don’t want to hear disabled.

DJ: The Barbie thing doesn’t bother me as much I think I don’t [00:39:06] mind disabled kids being represented. That doesn’t bother me. It’s when you blatantly kowtow to political correctness, and that’s what this change is.

Jerry: That’s exactly what it is

DJ: That’s what this change is. It’s not about Justice. It’s not about being right. It’s about being politically correct and like I said, and this is how I’ll end it, I would much rather be philosophically correct than politically correct. You can get in touch with us at on Twitter at @granddesignspod and on Instagram @granddesignspodcast
. [00:39:36] This is The Grand Design podcast. Who are you listening to?